Data Input Question |
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ddgates
Senior Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Location: Deer Valley Status: Offline Points: 1100 |
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Posted: 25 Jan 2016 at 11:17am |
I recently had my 429 output from the Aspens routed around the ACU1.
Is there anywhere within the IFD to tell what labels are getting through, i.e., to confirm that BaroAlt is available? Thanks
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David Gates
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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Baro Alt is definitely NOT available, if you route the 429 through the ACU1. Would suggest that you talk your shop into "Y"ing the 429 line, and sending one end to the ACU1, and the other to the IFD. The ACU itself does require the 429 line., but jsut ignore the filtered 429 output. * Orest |
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ddgates
Senior Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Location: Deer Valley Status: Offline Points: 1100 |
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Did do Y. Routed around the ACU. Looking to verify full 429.
Edited by ddgates - 25 Jan 2016 at 6:55pm |
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David Gates
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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WHOOPS sorry, misread your post. Before 10.1 that was easy, as you'd see VSR with the baro alt. Not sure now. But, you should see the Heading Indicator on the IFD now, which confirms that previously blocked datablocks are now getting through. * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 25 Jan 2016 at 7:06pm |
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ddgates
Senior Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Location: Deer Valley Status: Offline Points: 1100 |
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Was heading blocked going through ACU1?
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David Gates
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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No, heading was not an issue, I could always set heading or track mode.
But the active heading BUG display (on the IFD) was blocked. That only appeared when I got the ACU bypassed.
* Orest |
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ddgates
Senior Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Location: Deer Valley Status: Offline Points: 1100 |
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Aha! I will look next flight. Any other way to see if the IFD is getting BaroAlt that you know of? |
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David Gates
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twalterhome3
Groupie Joined: 06 Sep 2012 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 43 |
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Does enabling Baro Alt allow for automatic sequencing of DPs that have altitude legs?
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Tim
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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Yes.
* Orest |
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clydeps
Groupie Joined: 05 Sep 2015 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 72 |
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Go into the setup mode, there is a page that shows various received data.
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chflyer
Senior Member Joined: 24 Jan 2013 Location: LSZK Status: Offline Points: 1035 |
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Per 5XX/4XX IM (600-00299-000 Rev 07) p42, "IFD5XX/4XX should be interfaced to an Airdata source for automatic altitude leg sequencing (optional). If no baro-altitude data is supplied, altitude leg types must be manually sequenced for IFD5XX with Software 10.0.3.0 or earlier. IFD4XX and IFD5XX with software 10.1.0 or later will use GPS Altitude if an airdata source is not connected;" So if you have the latest software rev, baro alt is no longer needed to get automatic altitude leg sequencing. |
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Vince
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Craig767
Groupie Joined: 17 Dec 2014 Location: Gainesville, FL Status: Offline Points: 98 |
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Any other way to see if the IFD is getting BaroAlt that you know of?
Think the easiest way is go to calculator page. True Airspped. If you have a green font and can change altitude with Aspen Baro you have the Baro Altitude input |
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chflyer
Senior Member Joined: 24 Jan 2013 Location: LSZK Status: Offline Points: 1035 |
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Happy New Year to everyone and especially the folks at Avidyne!
I've had software updates since my last post above on 2016 Mar 12, and am now operating with 10.1.3.0. My IFDs do not have baro-altitude available. They do have heading input available from the Sandel.
The system is however not behaving as quoted above from p42 of the IM. That is, I get the "Manual Sequence Req'd" message on a heading-to-altitude leg despite the statement that GPS Altitude is used in this case with 10.1.0 or later. This is for a SID where there is no turn, just a single leg straight out departure to an 8nm fix at the end of the SID, which just happens to also be the IAF for the ILS to the reciprocal runway and the SID says to track out to the fix using the LOC for guidance. There is no altitude mentioned on the Jepp chart for this leg. There is a difference in behaviour between the SIM and the IFD. In the SIM, there are 2 legs in the departure. The first is a climb to 1710' (400' above airport altitude) and the second is to the fix on the same track. The FPL automatically selects the fix as the active leg, so the track-to-altitude issue doesn't arise and the SIM just flies directly to the fix. The departure looks the same in the IFD, but at takeoff the first leg is active (track-to-altitude), and the "Manual sequence req'd" message is presented. The second leg to the fix needs to be manually activated. Does anyone see anything different for heading-to-altitude without baro-altitude on 10.1.0 or later? Looks to me like a documentation error. It would be nice to know with which software release the use of GPS Altitude will become effective. I suspect that the actual departure in the IFD is a coding error on the part of Jepp since there is no altitude mentioned on the Jepp SID chart. Simpson? Edited by chflyer - 01 Jan 2017 at 8:38am |
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Vince
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chflyer
Senior Member Joined: 24 Jan 2013 Location: LSZK Status: Offline Points: 1035 |
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I had an aha moment after writing the above and would be interested in feedback.
Jeff Van West made a comment in a Mar 2016 IFR mag article that all departure procedures have a "stupid pilot safety" leg in that they assume a climb on runway heading to 400 AGL which just happens to be the end of the first track-to-altitude leg in my example above. I found another departure in the neighbourhood with an uncharted first leg terminating at 400 AGL. I wonder if Jepp does this on some of their navdata departures without mentioning it on the corresponding chart. If so, then the SIM would seem to be correct in making the 2nd leg (after the altitude) active on takeoff and the IFD is inconsistent. Perhaps this has been introduced (by mistake) in a release since the SIM? Of course that wouldn't apply if there was a course change at the altitude. P.S. On the SIM, the map doesn't show 2 legs, just one magenta leg from the airport to the first fix with the altitude fix also shown. The 2 legs are only listed on the FMS FPL page. Comments?
Edited by chflyer - 01 Jan 2017 at 9:40am |
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Vince
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Catani
Senior Member Joined: 21 Jan 2016 Status: Offline Points: 362 |
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As I understand it, all IMC departures assume a climb on runway heading to at least 400 feet, at the standard minimum climb rate unless otherwise specified, without regard to navaids or other fixes, because that is what pilots are trained to do. There's no need to mention that on a chart, since it's the same for all charts and is just a predetermined IFR procedure for any IMC takeoff.
There is no way to determine the coordinates of the position any specific airplane when it arrives at 400 feet and become subject to the charted SID's clearance instructions. Therefore, no navdata base should include a SID that presumes a course from the departure end of the runway to that location, a point that differs for every takeoff. What the navdata base can assume is that at some point the aircraft will get there, and at that point and not before, the pilot will proceed direct to the first fix. In other words, the navdata and the IFDX40 relying upon it, should presume the need for manual sequencing - the box can't know in advance where that GPS position is. I don't think that's a mistake. I have not attempted to utilize the baro or GPS altitude feature you describe. I can imagine a box that is designed to generate its own "proceed direct to the first fix" instruction based upon an altitude input that tells the box it's reached 400 feet AGL based upon navdata info concerning field elevation. If the IFD has that capability, that's interesting for sure, but I for one would not use it just out of personal preference and technique. In any case, from the pilot's perspective, a box with that capability would seem to sequence automatically and at the right time and place. But it would be doing so not based upon anything in Jeppesen's navdata, which of course cannot include the coordinates of that 400 foot turn point. It would be doing so because a box with that capability is designed to take a baro or GPS altitude input, and be programmed to activate a "direct to" leg to the first fix in the flight plan (be it a SID or enroute fix) when it reaches 400 AGL above the origin airport in the flight plan. If the IFDX40 is so designed, and it's not working for you, I suggest checking with your installer, who may need to use Avidyne tech support to troubleshoot the problem. But I do wonder: is the IFD supposed to have that capability (with the proper altitude inputs connected up during the install) on all takeoffs?
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chflyer
Senior Member Joined: 24 Jan 2013 Location: LSZK Status: Offline Points: 1035 |
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Thanks for the feedback.
The capability I'm referencing is described in the note on p5-4 of the PG and the IM extract p42 that I quoted above on Mar 12. As mentioned in the PG note, if there is no baro-alttitude input then there is no automatic sequencing to the 2nd leg of the SID. This is what is happening for me.
The IFD navdata does indeed include as a first leg on some SIDs a course to the 400 AGL position. Config LSZR as the origin in the SIM and select the SITO2V departure to see it. How do you fly such a SID? While it makes sense on Missed Approaches where there is a heading-to-altitude leg such as mentioned in the NOTE on p5-4 of the PG, it seems unsafe to me to be manually sequencing to the next leg in the IFD at 400 AGL just after takeoff. The way I fly this now is the way it is presented in the SIM. i.e. I activate the 2nd leg (starting at 400 AGL) before takeoff. As mentioned, I don't have baro-altitude input to the IFD. My question is really to Avidyne related to the statement in the IM that starting with 10.1.0 GPS altitude will be used for auto-sequencing on heading-to-altitude legs if baro-altitude is not present. This contradicts the note in the PG. |
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Vince
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Catani
Senior Member Joined: 21 Jan 2016 Status: Offline Points: 362 |
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I tried the SITO2V departure in the SIM. It automatically includes Runway 28, so I assume that SID is only available for 28. I noticed the SIM flew runway heading, then after reaching 1710 turned to a heading of 286 to SITOR. It appears to imitate an actual IFD that knows when it reaches 1710, as the PG and IM pages you noted maintain, but that may just be an artifact of the SIM software, which is assuming not only the role of an IFD but also the role of pilot in flying the airplane along the route. You ask how I would fly it -- probably hand fly or use the Heading mode for the autopilot until I had passed 1710, and then turn to SITOR and have the autopilot fly from there in NAV mode. One thing to check is whether in loading that SID in the IFD in your plane, is the runway selection automatically included as in the SIM, or do you have to enter that yourself? If you have to enter the runway manually in your plane, leaving out that step I've found can profoundly alter the IFD's behavior and route depictions to the point of making them incorrect. You're not finished loading a SID in an IFD until you've assured the takeoff runway is loaded into the IFD as well, and then cross-checked the FPL with your chart to make sure all fixes are depicted properly. Even though the navdata for the SITO2V SID includes heading information, it will not be able to provide the coordinates of the spot where 1710 feet is reached - which is of course the position where the turn to SITOR can begin. It remains an unknown point until that altitude is reached for each takeoff. So if automatic sequencing is to work, the IFD will have to rely upon the altitude capability you have indicated.
Taken together, the comments in the PG and IM you identified suggest that all of us who have the recent software upgrades have GPS derived altitude (at least) being used by the IFD to automatically sequence from runway heading to the first fix on the SID at the appropriate altitude, assuming the initial heading and altitude info is included in the navdata. On all my IFR departures I seem to get radar vectors, so I likely will not be able to take much advantage of this IFD capability much of the time. Since I had not noticed the PG and IM provisions, I've not tested my IFD to see whether it actually has that capability. |
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chflyer
Senior Member Joined: 24 Jan 2013 Location: LSZK Status: Offline Points: 1035 |
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Simpson, could you clarify the discrepancy mentioned above between IM p42 and PG p5-4 regarding the use of GPS altitude rather than baro-altitude for heading-to-altitude leg sequencing post-10.1.0?
Edited by chflyer - 31 Jan 2017 at 5:25pm |
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Vince
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