Seattle Avionics Alternative to Jeppesen |
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AndyMeyer
Newbie Joined: 05 Oct 2019 Location: SE PA Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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Posted: 10 May 2023 at 5:22pm |
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Avidyne,
Please build a relationship with someone competing with Jepp. The recent experiences that I've had have been disrespectful and poor. (wasting an hour of my time while "checking on it", invoicing, then delaying availability of data, etc...) Please! Regards, Andy
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nrproces
Senior Member Joined: 19 Sep 2016 Location: Marion, MT Status: Offline Points: 142 |
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We have been dealing with this for years, I notice that members, that are from nort a da border are vocal about not wanting SA, which makes sense since they are not Canada useful, but Jepp is a pain in the A** and can continue to be when you are the "phone" company. I agree about the Aspen/IFD integration, because I too have to do both...Wishing and Hoping...
Edited by nrproces - 12 Nov 2019 at 9:02am |
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Sauce
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skitheo
Senior Member Joined: 02 Jan 2016 Location: KFNL Status: Offline Points: 165 |
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Now, if we could just get those Avidyne + Aspen data bundles...
Edited by skitheo - 11 Nov 2019 at 4:15pm |
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3059 |
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It arrived a month or two ago, with more on the way before the end of the year. Among many others, one example, Nav only for the US at US$299. The details with product numbers ... * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 11 Nov 2019 at 2:58pm |
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MBerridge
Newbie Joined: 20 Dec 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1 |
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Been reading this thread and others like it for over a year. An Avidyne person, at their booth at SunNFun 2019, said they were going to "announce this summer" a deal with Jeppesen for reasonable pricing. When others (Foreflight, Avare, FltPlnGo....) offer continuous updates for less than a couple hundred a year, or absolutely at no cost, to a customer base much smaller than Jep, it seems clear that Jep is abusing us. Add to that the fact that it is nearly impossible to determine what you can and can't get and what it will cost. As others said, the answers change even when you call Jeppesen. This is a user-hostile company. How about a wireless database import from Foreflight or one of the others? Or Seattle's? We NEED an alternative to Jeppesen abuse. Sure, $1500 annually is not a LOT of money against total cost of ownership, but it's significant and a good factor of 10 higher than others can provide. Avidyne... where's that deal that was coming last summer??
Lovin' my 540.. hating Jeppesen.
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Avid User
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LANCE
Senior Member Joined: 06 Dec 2014 Location: TEXAS Status: Offline Points: 277 |
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Just buy the nav data for the 440 and use the geo referenced plates on your Foreflight. Having all of the ease-of-use features of the 440 over the 430W plus terrain, wi-fi, bluetooth makes it well worth it. If it's $200-$300 per year more, it's worth the safety of just the terrain feature alone. I can't imagine giving up all of that for $20 per month.
Edited by LANCE - 15 Apr 2018 at 12:35am |
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3059 |
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A 430W, versus a 440 + IFD100 are not in any sense, equivalent.
But, whatever works for you.
* Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 15 Apr 2018 at 2:21am |
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timfwalsh01
Newbie Joined: 09 Jan 2017 Location: Wash DC Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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WOW!!
I was just in the process of selling my 430W for the IFD440. I currently pay $299 for the NAVDATA for my 430W from Garmin. I previously used Jepp, and Garmin is now an option and cheaper. I fly with a Dynon Skyview in my Velocity and I have a lifetime subscription with Seattle Avionics. I also fly with Foreflight. The cost of the Jepp NAVDATA, and plates on the IFD100 (Geo Synch Approach Plates) are too much. I will not upgrade. I have three other Velocity owners who were also looking to upgrade. BUMMER Tim
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Tim Walsh
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paulr
Senior Member Joined: 24 Jan 2014 Status: Offline Points: 547 |
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Thank you-- that's the distinction I was missing.
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Cruiser
Senior Member Joined: 24 Feb 2017 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 139 |
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they are providing charts which are images. That is all. NavData is entirely different. The files break down the IAPs waypoint by waypoint among other things and must be formatted to the Avidyne processing structure.
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paulr
Senior Member Joined: 24 Jan 2014 Status: Offline Points: 547 |
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I've seen several claims that SA does not/cannot provide certified chart or nav data that is legal for IFR flight. Their press release on the new BendixKing xVue Touch sure makes it look like they think they can provide that data. What am I missing here?
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FEisert
Newbie Joined: 10 Feb 2016 Location: OH Status: Offline Points: 7 |
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I would love an alternative to jeppesen. Used Seattle Avionics EFB for years and love their service.
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compasst
Senior Member Joined: 22 Feb 2015 Location: Akron, OH Status: Offline Points: 169 |
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I have the following bundle on my IFD 540 and on my iPad in IFD100, Foreflight, and JeppFD. Yes, I don't like spending over $1000 to support my fun-and-family use of my Cardinal, but having a second supplier of charts for use on my commercial activity is welcome. And my wife wants me to have the Cardinal fully equipped - it just isn't worth experiencing a sudden iPad stoppage because it ran out of power (some panel USB and socket USB power adapters won't charge an iPad in use, let alone keep it running - but Anker socket USB adapters do the job on 12 and 24 vdc sockets). Worse, the iPad gets hot when running Foreflight. Add some sunlight or a warm cabin in winter and - oops, shutdown from being too hot just as I'm turning to intercept the final approach course. The Avidyne is way more reliable although it has also suddenly shut down for loss of GPS signal, although not since the update to 10.2.
Foreflight doesn't care if you use Jepp charts, but they won't let you drop the gov't chart cost. With Jepp, I have all my data with one download. I don't have to pick and choose states (hope I didn't miss one) as with FlyQ or Foreflight. Telling Jepp that you want the Avidyne bundle helps with cost, or so I've been told. As you can see from the image below (unsuccessful at resizing), Jepp doesn't do a very good job of telling you what each costs. And I get different answers each time I call them. |
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Bob H
Senior Member Joined: 26 Jan 2018 Location: NH - KMHT Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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We offer a bundle called the Suite Plus package. This provides charts for the IFD and 4 computers (Windows PC’s or I-Pads), navdata, obstacles and Terrain. That bundle is $1176.00/year.
ala-carte package: Charts, northeast coverage (IFD540 and the four computers) $350/year. Navdata, east central (TX, OK, KS, NE, N/SD EAST) $395. The ala-cart would be a total of $745/year. I chose the ala-carte package. Charts on 4 computers and no extra charge for the IFD100. |
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Bob
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teeth6
Senior Member Joined: 10 Mar 2014 Status: Offline Points: 741 |
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Jepp has a newer plan that allows plates on 2 devices that is less costly than their typical 4 device plan. Mine was definitely less than 1584
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comancheguy
Senior Member Joined: 24 Aug 2011 Location: Maryland Status: Offline Points: 160 |
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Just got my Jepp renewal in the mail...
$1584.95 for two IFD-540s. This, BTW infuriatingly is NOT enough to have plates on the IFD1000. For that, they wanted another few hundred (more than foreflight for the year, btw). I hate monopolies... Ken
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tony
Senior Member Joined: 06 Dec 2011 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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For those of you who want the details: here is the FAA order that would need to be followed for a provider to supply nav data...... There is absolutely nothing in the order that says Jepp is the only provider of certified nav databases in the world. Its just jepp and Avidyne went through the process together. |
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PA20Pacer
Senior Member Joined: 07 Mar 2012 Location: Illinois (LL22) Status: Offline Points: 161 |
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The Limitations section of the FAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual Supplement (AFMS) for your GPS installation will include language that governs requirements for database currency. The language in the current AFMS for the IFD series navigators is as follows: "5. GPS/SBAS based IFR enroute, oceanic, and terminal
navigation is prohibited unless current Navigation and
Procedure databases are installed." Regards, Bob
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Bob Siegfried, II
Brookeridge Airpark (LL22) Downers Grove, IL |
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m016576
Newbie Joined: 19 Feb 2018 Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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True. In the AIM there is a mention of the need to update a database for IFR operations, but I can't seem to find anything about GPS databases in the FAR's. As you know, the AIM is not a regulatory document, just a collection of "best practices". I remember reading a while back that so long as you verify that the points used for navigation are accurate, that it is legal to use a panel mount GPS for area navigation, just not for precision approaches. That may have only been for the 430W/530W. The AFM supp. for the IFD may state a more stringent requirement (I don't know as I keep my databases updated, so it hasn't been a factor to me). I'd be interested to know what FAR covers GPS databases for part 91 ops, and exactly what the wording is from a legality standpoint, if for nothing else than just my own knowledge. Do you happen to know the regulation that covers this? Thanks
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Bob H
Senior Member Joined: 26 Jan 2018 Location: NH - KMHT Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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Yes of course. However, the IFD540/440 units are IFR certified WAAS GPSs., the context of the conversation is IFR, and my post context is clear with references to “criteria for IFR flight”. If I want a VFR GPS, my phone will work just fine. I don’t need to spend $20K or more and then dumb it down. I could also just turn the box off and look out the window.
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Bob
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m016576
Newbie Joined: 19 Feb 2018 Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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<p ="msonospacing"=""> <p ="msonospacing"=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 107%; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
That is simply not true for VFR. "current" NavData is *not* required for VFR flightht. All that is required, in order to use your panel mount GPS for Vfr flight is that you verify that the GPS points are current and accurate. you can use an old cycle's data, so long as the points have not changed, and you've verified them. Edited by m016576 - 19 Feb 2018 at 12:17pm |
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LANCE
Senior Member Joined: 06 Dec 2014 Location: TEXAS Status: Offline Points: 277 |
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Obstacles need to be updated since they change frequently. Terrain pretty much stays the same.
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Bob H
Senior Member Joined: 26 Jan 2018 Location: NH - KMHT Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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Agreed. Charts on the box is not all that useful. A Tablet App for NACO or Jepps is necessary to do a good approach briefing. For someone who doesn't want or pay for Jepps, nothing important is lost by using a Tablet App only. Since I'm a Jepp guy, the App of my choice was the IFD100, which gives me the charts in both places, which was a nice perk I was willing to pay for.
LOL! We've come a LONG way baby!
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Bob
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MarkZ
Senior Member Joined: 05 Sep 2015 Location: 0TX0 Status: Offline Points: 172 |
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$68.00 once a year to silence the yellow tag on the splash page for one cycle. Thanks for the terrain info. I agree one must keep current NavData to have a legal IFR box. Charts however are much easier to work with on the iPad stuck to the yoke. I thought I was in heaven when the chief pilot consented to “Q service” many years ago.
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Bob H
Senior Member Joined: 26 Jan 2018 Location: NH - KMHT Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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BTW, if you are purchasing terrain data once per year, you are wasting money. Terrain data hasn’t been updated since Aug. 2015. |
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Bob
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Paul
Senior Member Joined: 17 Aug 2012 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 285 |
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What exactly are the rules for flying without current data? My wife is the instrument pilot in the family and she wants it all to be up to date but I don't know the details of what we would give up if we didn't have it.
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bjsieve
Newbie Joined: 10 Jan 2017 Location: Minneapolis Status: Offline Points: 5 |
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Good idea. I've been flying with ForeFlight for years and love it. Just got the 9.7" iPad Pro with iPencil and its mindbogglingly powerful.
I do fly a decent bit of IFR and FWIW, nav-data is really just what is needed. All the other eye candy is just super expensive for things not essential. If you fly your MEA's you have nothing to worry about plus ForeFlight will warn you on terrain if you get near anything sticking up into your flight path. Likely just going to get the Stratus 2S so I have a completely separate but highly capable system and be done with it. Maybe the MBA's at Jeppesen will finally come to realize this and offer a reasonably priced subscription package to light GA aircraft that isn't 1/9th annually the cost of the IFD 540. Stupid. Not everyone fly's multi million dollar airplanes that have aviation budgets where a 4 digit subscription cost is a rounding number. |
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MarkZ
Senior Member Joined: 05 Sep 2015 Location: 0TX0 Status: Offline Points: 172 |
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NavData and terrain (once a year) is what I do. For the price of Jepp charts you can buy the full on ForeFlight package with NACO and the baddest iPad available. Throw in a Stratus and you have everything you will ever need. ForeFlight NavData even includes Jepp terrain.
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bjsieve
Newbie Joined: 10 Jan 2017 Location: Minneapolis Status: Offline Points: 5 |
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As a new owner of a 540/440 stack I am shocked at the data costs quoted from Jeppesen. Certainly feels like there running a Monopoly. I’m sure Boeing recognized this when they acquired them, watching their prices rise year afrer year.
I don’t think Avidyne fully understands what a sales killer it is to have such high subscription costs associated with for their boxes. I’m sure they would sell more units if they could work out a solution with SA to lower the data costs. I am fine with Forefloight for charts, approach plates and terrain / obstacles. Just need NavData mostly. Maybe once a year terrain update. |
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Bob H
Senior Member Joined: 26 Jan 2018 Location: NH - KMHT Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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I figure if I'm going outside my region, I'll get a trip kit. I don't do that very often, but I'll do that when I head to Sun-N-Fun in April. Per Orest's response, I do indeed have it on multiple platforms including an iPAD Mini for the IFD100.
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Bob
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tony
Senior Member Joined: 06 Dec 2011 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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David, The point I was trying to make is that there is nothing magical about Jepp. SA can provide the data just as easy as Jepp can. And with my conversations with SA, they want to if given a chance. I think having a choice and creating completion is a good thing. It would help EVERYONE including the Jepp fans. Isn't that why we all went with Avidyne in the first place, so that the big mean G wasn't the only game in town?
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3059 |
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YES, you get up to four portable locations (including FF), with my plan. One of the coolest things to this package, I'm a Jepp guy from way back, so like to see them everywhere.
* Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 16 Feb 2018 at 9:11am |
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Paul
Senior Member Joined: 17 Aug 2012 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 285 |
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I could save a couple hundred by reducing the coverage area. I've considered doing that. With that package do you also get the ability to put the data and charts on a iPad running IFD100 or ForeFlight?
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DavidBunin
Senior Member Joined: 20 May 2015 Location: Rockwall, TX Status: Offline Points: 742 |
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Just because users find errors, doesn't meant that Jepp isn't doing data verification. It just means that the FAA data has (had) more errors than they found. For what it's worth, the few times in my career that I have identified errors and brought them to Jepp, the corrections have appeared in three cycles or less. I'll still complain about the pricing (also a 172 pilot here) but I must give them credit for the services that they do provide. |
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Bob H
Senior Member Joined: 26 Jan 2018 Location: NH - KMHT Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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We're both in the Northeast. I'm at: Revision Service.28-Days.Annual - 1 NavData.IFR.Coverage.Avidyne.IFD540.East/Central USA: $395 Revision Service.JV MFD.14-Days.Annual - 1 Electronic Chart Services.Northeastern US.JV MFD IFR.Coverage: $350.
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Bob
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Paul
Senior Member Joined: 17 Aug 2012 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 285 |
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We have a 172. Jepp wants about $1000 a year for the bundle with charts. And after I pay that we'll still have a 172. I'm an example of a price-sensitive consumer.
Last time I looked it appeared it would be less expensive to buy a bundle for a Garmin or BK GPS. That's not a good message. |
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tony
Senior Member Joined: 06 Dec 2011 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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"Jepp also does provide some value added by error checking and validating changes before publishing, especially on approach charts." This just isn't true. The users find the mistakes and feed them back to Jepp. If there is a fix, it usually takes four or five cycles to get implemented. |
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paulr
Senior Member Joined: 24 Jan 2014 Status: Offline Points: 547 |
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The IFD100 is a fine tool for use in the plane. Foreflight complements it very nicely when I'm not in the plane, however. Its flight planning and SA tools are extremely useful to me. Sure, maybe 80% of what they do is available in free equivalent services, but I am willing to pay for the integration, utility, and convenience of having all my aircraft, flight, route, nav, and weather data and services (including access to flight plan and TFR data) in a single app that is easily accessed without need for a PC.
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MarkZ
Senior Member Joined: 05 Sep 2015 Location: 0TX0 Status: Offline Points: 172 |
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I’ll never give the big “J” a penny more than necessary. NACO charts on ForeFlight will guide my way very acceptably. However, I’m stuck for the NavData subscriptions.
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Bob H
Senior Member Joined: 26 Jan 2018 Location: NH - KMHT Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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Jepp pricing is horrible based on comparison with SA that doesn’t have a product in this market space. The entire discussion on pricing is comparing apples and oranges. I have to think that liability costs of providing data to certified boxes is not trivial. Jepp also does provide some value added by error checking and validating changes before publishing, especially on approach charts. I actually was prepared not to subscribe to Jepp charts on the IFD540, because I need a better platform to read and review charts, which a tablet provides. Instead, I would have used an app such as Foreflight to get my Jepp charts. However, the IFD100 is a game changer. I can get the Jepps on both the IFD540 and a tablet. So, I went with that rather than Foreflight. If I was a NACO chart user, I would have gone with a free app with geo-referenced charts that connects to the IFD540. That would have been a fine alternative, and all pricing is horrible when compared to that option. |
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Bob
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tony
Senior Member Joined: 06 Dec 2011 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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There is no such thing as "certified" nav data. A vendor creates a database from the FAA source data and shows compliance to DO-200A. DO-200 demonstrates the process is repeatable. The OEM (avidyne in this case) provides an LOA to authorize its use in their product.
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ddgates
Senior Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Location: Deer Valley Status: Offline Points: 1100 |
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I communicated with SA.
As Orest indicated, they do not do certified nav data, so SA as an option to horrible Jepp pricing and inconsistent customer service is not a viable option. |
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David Gates
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3059 |
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From what I read up-thread, SA does not, or cannot supply navdata, just charts only. And outside the US, there are limits on the charts available.
If that is all true, then this is largely a non-sequitur. * Orest |
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tony
Senior Member Joined: 06 Dec 2011 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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+1 for SA. I really don't see a problem with having a choice.
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nrproces
Senior Member Joined: 19 Sep 2016 Location: Marion, MT Status: Offline Points: 142 |
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I also am in. (STILL)
I Love Seattle Avionics. (Disclaimer; I am also one of those guys who must use Jepps in the day job) We (day job) are now going to transition from a Microsoft Surface to an IPad in the spring (which it what we should have done in the first place, but that is another topic, better left alone here.) The whole idea of "Open" is what we came to Avidyne for in the first place. I have been a beta tester for the SA EFB since the beginning, and since I have to use both platforms and 3 different EFB's to do my jobs and hobbies, I am pushing for Seattle Avionics as my choice. Note: I am totally convinced that their product is the best, it is the simplest and their "Customer Service" is absolutely miles ahead of Jepp. (I just cringe when it is time to update the subscription because "NO ONE" at that outfit is on the same page with anyone else.) Ok, said my piece, hopefully we can add them as an alternative. Edited by nrproces - 14 Feb 2018 at 8:17am |
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Sauce
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Bob H
Senior Member Joined: 26 Jan 2018 Location: NH - KMHT Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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SA vs. Jeppesen seems to be a pretty hot topic. I’ll disclose that I have used Jeppesen
products since the early 1980’s. I
started using Jepp electronic charts when they first came out when a tablet PC running
Windows XP was the only platform. That platform
has worked flawlessly right up until this year when I installed the IFD540. The NACO Charts have improved significantly
over all those years, so there is no longer a big differentiator. It is now just my personal preference.
However, from an Avidyne business model, I think it makes
good sense that Avidyne has selected Jeppesen as their single data supplier. Trying to work with multiple vendors is just
not cost effective or efficient in bringing a product to market. Jeppesen is a good choice as they have the largest
product portfolio with a world data platform.
But probably most importantly, they are used by many business, fleet,
and airline operators. They even customize
charts for many of these operators. These
factors give Avidyne the widest possible market to move into. The larger their market, the better for us GA
folks. There is some thought that competition is good, so prices
will come down if SA competes with Jepp.
I don’t think so. GA is a small
market. GA IFR is smaller. GA IFR Avidyne is even smaller. There just isn’t enough business to spread
around. Data vendor fixed costs will remain
the same and market share might drop in half.
That is a business model that often results in vendors exiting the
market or price increases to maintain margins.
At the least, it is a business model that may result in less resources
and less responsiveness to issues. I
trust Avidyne to maintain a strong business relationship with a single vendor
and to work with them on good support and reasonable pricing given the product
being delivered. This is why even after
product introduction, a single data vendor is appropriate. After all, if subscription costs get too high,
Avidyne will lose hardware sales. So, a second
vendor may not be the panacea it appears to be and may just have unintended
consequences. I, for one, hope that
Avidyne continues to cultivate and stick with a single data vendor. As a matter of curiosity, are there any certified
WAAS GPS units that have more than one data vendor? Liability costs are also a factor in pricing for
certified WAAS GPS data, so pricing comparisons should only be done between
certified boxes, not portable devices. I know that some folks find that charts on the IFD540 can
be difficult to read and that they have forgone paying for those charts anyway. There are certainly free geo-reference NACO chart
options that will run on an iPad or Android tablet and interface wirelessly with
an IFD. That is a good alternative when
wanting NACO charts over Jeppesen. |
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Bob
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Cruiser
Senior Member Joined: 24 Feb 2017 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 139 |
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There is a huge difference between the geo-referenced charts Seattle Avionics is supplying in the link above by TurboPA30 and certified NavData used by a GPS to follow an approach course.
These are apples and oranges comparison.
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TurboPA30
Senior Member Joined: 18 Sep 2010 Location: 27XS Status: Offline Points: 138 |
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http://www.seattleavionics.com/ChartData/Default.aspx?TargetDevice=ksn
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paulr
Senior Member Joined: 24 Jan 2014 Status: Offline Points: 547 |
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Another data point: the BendixKing update prices for the KLN94 are pretty eye-watering as well. Two years ago, before I got my 540, a single month's update was $280, and I seem to recall that a yearly subscription was in the $1000 range… and that's just for navdata, with no obstacles or charts. I'm not 100% sure but I'd expect they use the same data as the big Honeywell FMS so using those data sources might not be any cheaper, as Simpson says.
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ddgates
Senior Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Location: Deer Valley Status: Offline Points: 1100 |
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That is good to know. Thank you.
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David Gates
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