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Seattle Avionics Alternative to Jeppesen |
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AviSimpson 
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 Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 10:14am |
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As much as I would like us to be compared with companies like GE Aviation and Rockwell Collins, it is a bit of a stretch. You will find that the majority of the companies listed do not provide products for the part 23 market. While this looks interesting, you will find that this provider is targeting a larger clientele and therefore it would likely come with a larger price tag.
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Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
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AviSimpson
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Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 10:08am |
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I know the current silence on releases and product announcements is a departure from our historical trend. There is no need to be scared, we are working on numerous products and IFD releases. In regards to 10.2.1, we have been working on it for some time now and it's in the later stages of development. I will not post an update or release notes until we are closer to having it certified.
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Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
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skitheo
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Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 11:58pm |
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However, AeroNavData does: https://aeronavdata.com/aeronautical-navigation-data/source-analysis/ Jeppesen does not have a monopoly, in spite of how it may feel. Most of Avidyne's competitors in the FMS/GPS navigator market have relationships with AeroNavData: https://aeronavdata.com/capabilities/aeronautical-expertise/fms-collaboration/ Edited by skitheo - 23 Oct 2017 at 11:59pm |
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DavidBunin
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Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 1:13pm |
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I don't find the silence scary at all. It's normal. Every avionics company is ALWAYS working on a next software release, the difference here is that Avidyne gives us a peek behind the curtain to see what might be coming. Giving a progress update on any certification project is really hard, because the process is open-ended. The applicant submits a data package to the FAA and then the FAA (nominally) has 60~90 days to review the submitted data. But the review doesn't automatically end in approval. The FAA could reject the package, or the FAA can ask the applicant a question about it. (The "question" is usually as request for additional data or substantiation.) When the applicant answers the question or provides the requested data, a new 60~90 day clock starts at the FAA. That can end in the same three ways as above. In the words of Robert Heinlein, "Waiting is." |
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AUXAIR
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Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 11:46am |
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+1
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David E.
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KIM
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Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 11:33am |
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It would be very nice to get an update of the progress of 10.2.1; weeks, months, years or ?? The silence is scary! |
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Klaus
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LANCE
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Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 10:00am |
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I agree 100% - and I'm in the U. S.
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nrproces
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Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 9:42am |
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(chflyer)
Any bias? Perhaps like Switzerland and SA doesnt work there, yet? Edited by nrproces - 22 Oct 2017 at 9:43am |
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Sauce
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chflyer
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Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 1:11am |
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I personally would rather see Avidyne put the resources on promised deliverables (some over 4 years old) than something like this that would divert resources from them. Let's see Avidyne deliver on their promises first, and fix bugs in delivered systems.
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Vince
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tony
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Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 12:32pm |
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so the way I think this works is:
So its not just go get the data from the government. Then all of these artifacts are presented in a report that Avidyne writes to their ACO and we wait, and wait, and wait (sometimes for years) until the unbridled bureaucrats say OK. |
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ddgates
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Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 11:32am |
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Thank you.
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David Gates
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LANCE
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Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 10:51am |
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$1085 is for full USA Coverage. Call and use the item numbers below and they will correct it.
In addition to that, if you are a COPA member (Cirrus Owners and Pilots Association - you don't have to own a Cirrus to be a member) you get 15 months of coverage for the price of 12 months.
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ddgates
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Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 9:13am |
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Orest: That's been the history with Jepp. Pricing all over the map. One price from one agent, another from another, etc. Jake was working to clean this up with them, but.... We need another option. The only way I can see to get this right is to introduce competition. Monopoly is the killer of customer service.
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David Gates
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PeterC
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Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 8:28am |
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While at OSH this year, an Avidyne rep told me that one of the big issues was that to switch to SA would require a large effort in reprogramming and I presume they did not have resources to do that. Simpson alluded to a number of roadblock of which that may be one. I was told it was a huge undertaking.
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Peter - 1977 Cardinal RG C-FJPC - IFD550/540/240/322/605A/Skytrax100, Aspen MAX 2000, Trio A/P
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oskrypuch
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Posted: 18 Oct 2017 at 10:15pm |
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That is odd, I have the full North America (have to to get Canada + US) navdata + obstacles, and all the charts for Canada and US, coast to coast, with the included up to four portable devices. Sub is $1850. Why are you paying so much, for so much less. * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 18 Oct 2017 at 10:23pm |
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ddgates
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Posted: 18 Oct 2017 at 9:27pm |
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Relevant to the conversation is that I got my renewal bill (for just Southwestern coverage area) =
$1085 for the Avidynes and $450 for navdata only for the Aspens. This is absurd. We need choice!
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David Gates
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AzAv8r
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Posted: 18 Oct 2017 at 9:21pm |
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I don't see anything particularly daunting in AC 20-153A. Of course, I'm the kind of engineer who DOES do this kind of thing in his spare time. interesting problems related to things I care about are... INTERESTING!
In my cursory review, it appears that both SA and Avidyne would need an LOA - but virtually all the LOA work for Avidyne would have already been done for Jepp. (Well, already done to be in the business they are in, documented for the FAA for the Jepp-related LOA.) I do not currently have access to RTCA's DO-200A, but my exposure to other RTCA documents would suggest there are a miriad of detailed checklist items to spend time addressing, but I see no reason to expect anything that would represent a sea change or significant effort for a competent commerical software provider. My conclusion (and this is of course speculation) is that one or more of the following is true: - Avidyne receives kickbacks from Jepp for data purchases. - Avidyne has a contract with Jepp that in return for some level of Jepp support provided during development/certification, Avidyne would not allow an alternative data provider (hopefully for a small finite period of time, but some people are not good negotiators...) - Jepp provided Avidyne proprietary code and an API to expedite development/certification, and Avidyne is unwilling or unable to sever themselves from that liability. (This is most disconcerting, for a lot of reasons.) |
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MysticCobra
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Posted: 17 Oct 2017 at 10:14pm |
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Plus, it would be a never-ending revenue stream after the initial hardware sale. What business wouldn't want that?
Edited by MysticCobra - 17 Oct 2017 at 10:15pm |
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mfb
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Posted: 17 Oct 2017 at 10:13pm |
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Check out Advisory Circular 20-153A. It describes what the FAA requires for a company to get approved as a data supplier. The process doesn't look very easy to me. It's not something that Avidyne or anyone else can do in their spare time.
Jeppesen's expertise is getting stuff like this done. Avidyne's isn't. Mike |
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Flying_Monkey
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Posted: 17 Oct 2017 at 7:34pm |
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Why doesn't Avidyne do this themselves? I wish I understood more about the complexity of the nav data. I know this sounds super ignorant (which is why I sincerely wish to learn more) but it seems like the FAA provides the FREE certified nav data to everyone. What is so difficult in re-formatting for a particular piece of hardware to use? I just don't get why it's so expensive when the FAA seems to be doing all the legwork in creating the data in the first place!
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Cruiser
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Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 7:16pm |
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To process FAA approved NavData the supplier must obtain a LOA (Letter of Approval) stating they comply with RTCA DO-200A
I have no idea what that means but I suspect Seattle Avionics does not have one.
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AzAv8r
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Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 10:05am |
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In the US, *all* approved navigation data (and chart data) comes from the same source: the FAA. Jepp gets it there, as does Seattle Avionics, as does Foreflight,as does Avare (an open-source and free Android app), as does SkyVector.com .
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/aero_data/ Charts are here: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/ You can submit chart changes here: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/aero_data/Airport_Data_Changes_Public/ |
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AviSimpson
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Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 9:32am |
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They do not provide certified navigation data.
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Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
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94S
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Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 9:18am |
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[/QUOTE]
Thank you Simpson for the response. Is the same true for the Nav data? I'm not interested in the charts, and I would guess others feel the same as I do. The charts on Foreflight are just find for me. [/QUOTE]I also am only interested in the nav data. I get my charts from SA's FlyQ app. |
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tony
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Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 9:09am |
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Thank you Simpson for the response. Is the same true for the Nav data? I'm not interested in the charts, and I would guess others feel the same as I do. The charts on Foreflight are just find for me. |
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AviSimpson
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Posted: 13 Oct 2017 at 1:46pm |
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We are listening and this topic is nothing new. We have had numerous conversations in the past and in the last 6 months with Seattle Avionics about providing data to the IFDs. Out of those discussions, we identified many hurdles that would need to be addressed in order for their chart data to be implemented on the IFDs.
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Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
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tony
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Posted: 12 Oct 2017 at 9:34am |
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I'm guessing there must be a business arrangement that was made early on in the development that Avidyne can't get out of. Something like Jepp invested their own Funds for the DO-200 cert on this platform. I have no way of knowing, just speculating. The silence is telling. Kinda made a deal with the devil. If the interface is truly open, then there is nothing stopping SA from taking on a cert of there own. Edited by tony - 12 Oct 2017 at 9:35am |
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MarkZ
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Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 8:33pm |
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Mark me down for jumping off the Jeppesen ship the second the opportunity comes available.
Through the years I’ve given them a King's ransom not to mention the time I spent in those leather binders!! |
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oskrypuch
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Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 7:20pm |
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Jepp is very interested in the accuracy of their data, and in my experience do solicit and investigate corrections offered.
It is also fairly easy to add private airports (recent topic), that may not be in the database, you just call them with the details. * Orest |
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FlyingCOham
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Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 7:08pm |
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"they said they wouldn't change it." Interesting. Several years ago I found a similar error (freq in wrong place) and called Jepp about it. The person that took the call put me through to a specialist who agreed and promised it would be addressed. It took several cycles but it was fixed. Some people care and some just don't. ( : < )
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Jim Patton
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M20Kid
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Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 5:44pm |
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What I know is that competition keeps the costs in line for everyone. Left to their own devices Jeppesen will always charge a kings ransom for their products. If we can get SA as an additional approved supplier for the 440/540 line, then we can all make the choice that fits our needs and budgets the best. Some will surely stay with Jeppesen, but other (like me) would jump the Jeppesen ship in a heartbeat if SA data were available.
I spoke with one of the Avidyne reps at Oshkosh and mentioned that 9 years of Jeppesen data equaled the initial purchase price of the 540. How many people do you suspect do the math and refuse to buy a 540 due to the ongoing cost of data? How many additional units could Avidyne sell if they just had a more reasonable data supplier? I don't know the answers but I'm sure they have lost business because of their inability to use more economical data. Let's push to make this happen! Edited by M20Kid - 11 Oct 2017 at 5:45pm |
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jwjenks
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Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 10:37am |
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I asked Avidyne at Oshkosh when they would start accepting other (SA) databases. They would not give me an answer. SA told me at Oshkosh their subscription for charts and Nav would be less than $200/yr. My friends private airport, DE25, is not in Jeppesen but is in SA.
Not only that but I do a lot of NYC work, 127.85 is listed as a LGA frequency, it is actually a Newark frequency. I called Jepp to point out the error, they said they wouldn't change it. Another pilot, does 15hrs training per wk, at my airport who just got his first GPS (G700) said if Avidyne had SA charts he would have got an IFD 540 if subscription costs were $200/yr that I told him about. |
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JWJ
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tony
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Posted: 10 Oct 2017 at 7:45am |
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I concur
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MarkZ
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Posted: 10 Oct 2017 at 7:40am |
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It ain’t gonna happen?
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skitheo
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Posted: 09 Oct 2017 at 9:49pm |
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There are quite a few of us asking, but I haven't seen any response from AviSimpson, nor anyone else from Avidyne. What should we infer from that?
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n7ifr
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Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 10:22am |
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Larry, thanks for the PM.
Emailed with Steve P. @ SA about the "disconnect" with lack of Airport Diagrams on Aspen DB compared with SA's FlyQ DB - The Aspen DB including the Nav-Data is directly from FAA and distributed by Jeppesen ($), and SA is not in that loop. SA provides the Aspen Approach Charts only. We can only hope Avidyne is aware of this large interest group to have SA as a competetive supplier for our 540/550 Charts and Airport Diagrams. Tom W. |
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TurboPA30
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Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 2:58am |
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My 3 IFD 540, the EX600 and EX5000 all would be on a Seattle Avionics Subscription if that happens.
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ksdoc
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Posted: 27 Sep 2017 at 1:53pm |
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Tom,
PM sent
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kansasdoc
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n7ifr
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Posted: 27 Sep 2017 at 12:46pm |
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Larry,
There have been many complaints about the Mac-SA interface for downloading Aspen chart data, but. the PC interface works very well, albeit a bit slower than the Jepp interface. In all fairness, I believe the issue to have SA be a Chart Provider (or not) for Avidyne is not related to the 540/440 Nav-Data, just approach Charts (not available on the 440). Agree, not sure why the Aspen-SA database doesn't have the Airport diagrams for KPSO or KPAN, and why their iPad App (FlyQ) does have all airports (just like FF)... not sure why the difference. BTW, how's the hangar search? Tom W.
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ksdoc
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Posted: 27 Sep 2017 at 12:25pm |
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I've been a Jepp user with my Avidyne products for years. The Jepp manager on my Mac works great with not only the 440 but the old Garmin GMX200 and the Aspen data.
I tried the trial subscription for SA on the Aspen 2500, but stopped using it after the first attempt. Just a terrible interface and download. I don't know if that is unique to Mac, but it was so bad I would not waste my time even if the data for the 440 or Aspen was available and cheaper. Plus, the chart subscription does not even include airport diagrams for my home base (KPAN) or for Pagosa. I understand it is only for the larger airports. Unless SA improves the download manager for Mac, I'm happy to stay with Jepp, though I accept I'm paying more for the data.
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kansasdoc
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n7ifr
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Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 12:12am |
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Nice thread - Great minds think alike.
No surprise so many SA subscribers also have Avidyne product in their panels. SA instrument plate subscriptions would give Avidyne a great competitive edge over G-----, offering an alternative for IAP's. Seattle Avionics is one of the few vendors that has already made its iPad App (FlyQ) fully Avidyne WiFi-ADSB and Flight Plan compatible!! Avidyne - why not give Jepp some competition - Seattle Avionics will be a breath of fresh air for our 540 and 550's and allow us to use the NACO plates we love at a fraction of the Jepp cost!!! Tom W. Edited by n7ifr - 26 Sep 2017 at 12:15am |
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Paul
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Posted: 25 Sep 2017 at 9:30pm |
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I'm sure there is a business case for less expensive charts and plates. How about this one:
The Dynon Certified Skyview HDX panels are a disruptor if not a game changer for glass panels. But they don't include a GPS. How about a package with a Dynon panel and an IFD 440 with a Seattle Avionics data bundle? This could be very appealing to flight schools as a way to offer a TAA at a cost much less than that of a G-1000 equipped 172SP. It would definitely be to Avidyne's advantage to have students learning on an IFD rather than a GTN or GNS. Or this one: There are may legacy aircraft pilots who occasionally fly in benign IFR and who would really like to have a panel IFR so they can file /G and fly WAAS approaches. When they decide to make the big investment they look at the Garmin 650 and the Avidyne 440. Being able to advertise "Charts, all you need for legal IFR - $299 per year or $1495 lifetime" may swing the decision of someone who has been saving for years or has taken out a loan for this purchase. |
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tony
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Posted: 25 Sep 2017 at 9:34am |
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I talked to Seattle avionics over a year ago. At that time they were
ready and willing to go ahead and begin the work. They were just
waiting for the go ahead from Avidyne. I do know that there is a fair
amount of testing Avidyne would have to perform to validate that the nav
data in the IFD platform. I would hope that most of the testing could
be done in the lab with just a small subset validated in flight. I just
cant see the business case for Avidyne to put the effort in. I hope
I'm wrong and there is a business case.
Simpson if your reading these, please give us a second source for Nav data. Charts will always be more cost effective on foreflight. |
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Paul
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Posted: 24 Sep 2017 at 9:40pm |
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According to the Seattle Avionics website a US IFR ChartData subscription for a KSN 770 is $299. A European subscription is $649. And Australia is $349.
I don't quite understand Garmin's pricing but from what I've seen their charts are cheaper than Jepp's. Of the three aviation GPS manufacturers only Avidyne doesn't offer a lower cost alternative to Jeppesen. |
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nrproces
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Posted: 23 Sep 2017 at 7:58am |
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Me too!
I am a Seattle Avionics customer and beta tester, I want SA to provide database data for my IFD540/440 GPS requirements. Their product support is a magnitude above the "George Jepsen's" and you don't need the treadmill that the Jep website insists on. |
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Sauce
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skitheo
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Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 5:55pm |
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Count me as someone who would strongly prefer an option to subscribe to someone _other than_ Jeppesen supplying data for my IFD540. If it's SA, then great.
Unlike Orest, I do not use plates on the IFD540. I prefer to display them on something else, i.e. tablet, paper, etc. Only occasionally to I pull up an airport diagram on the IFD.
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BobsV35B
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Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 5:50pm |
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Good Afternoon Freff.
I guess the point is that we tend to get to like what we know. Having used Jeppesen since 1951, I am just used to it. I DO agree it is overpriced, but I sure prefer the product to any other mapping data function. Happy Skies, Old Bob
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Old Bob, Ancient Aviator
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BobsV35B
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Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 5:46pm |
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Old Bob, Ancient Aviator
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Freff
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Joined: 01 Oct 2015 Status: Offline Points: 25 |
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Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 4:12pm |
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The one thing that I really don't like about my IFD is Jeppesen. Every year when my renewal comes up I think about selling my IFD and replacing it. But if Avidyne offered an alternative to Jeppesen I don't know why anyone would buy an alternative product to the IFD.
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BobsV35B
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Joined: 24 Aug 2011 Location: Downers Grove, Status: Offline Points: 131 |
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Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 9:57am |
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We also live at a private airport. (LL22) It IS in the Jeppesen, Avidyne, and ForeFlight databases.
Happy Skies, Old Bob
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Old Bob, Ancient Aviator
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skitheo wrote: