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Seattle Avionics Alternative to Jeppesen

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LANCE View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LANCE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 10:51am
$1085 is for full USA Coverage. Call and use the item numbers below and they will correct it.

In addition to that, if you are a COPA member (Cirrus Owners and Pilots Association - you don't have to own a Cirrus to be a member) you get 15 months of coverage for the price of 12 months.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 11:32am
Thank you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 12:32pm

Originally posted by AzAv8r AzAv8r wrote:

In the US, *all* approved navigation data (and chart data) comes from the same source:  the FAA. Jepp gets it there, as does Seattle Avionics, as does Foreflight,as does Avare (an open-source and free Android app), as does SkyVector.com .

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/aero_data/

Charts are here:
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/

You can submit chart changes here:
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/aero_data/Airport_Data_Changes_Public/


so the way I think this works is:

  •  SA has to build the approaches in such a way that the FMS can interpret and fly them to be complaint with the publish approaches (leg types),
  •  then SA has to build a loadable database and certify that the process they use is repeatable (DO-200A) 
  • then Avidyne has to actually verify the installed performance in the system (LOA)

So its not just go get the data from the government.  Then all of these artifacts are presented in a report that Avidyne writes to their ACO and we wait, and wait, and wait (sometimes for years) until the unbridled bureaucrats say OK.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 1:11am
I personally would rather see Avidyne put the resources on promised deliverables (some over 4 years old) than something like this that would divert resources from them. Let's see Avidyne deliver on their promises first, and fix bugs in delivered systems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nrproces Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 9:42am
(chflyer)
Any bias? Perhaps like Switzerland and SA doesnt work there, yet?


Edited by nrproces - 22 Oct 2017 at 9:43am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LANCE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 10:00am
Originally posted by chflyer chflyer wrote:

I personally would rather see Avidyne put the resources on promised deliverables (some over 4 years old) than something like this that would divert resources from them. Let's see Avidyne deliver on their promises first, and fix bugs in delivered systems.

I agree 100% - and I'm in the U. S.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KIM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 11:33am


It would be very nice to get an update of the progress of 10.2.1; weeks, months, years or ??

The silence is scary!

Klaus
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AUXAIR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 11:46am
Originally posted by LANCE LANCE wrote:

Originally posted by chflyer chflyer wrote:

I personally would rather see Avidyne put the resources on promised deliverables (some over 4 years old) than something like this that would divert resources from them. Let's see Avidyne deliver on their promises first, and fix bugs in delivered systems.

I agree 100% - and I'm in the U. S.

+1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidBunin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by KIM KIM wrote:

It would be very nice to get an update of the progress of 10.2.1; weeks, months, years or ??

The silence is scary!


I don't find the silence scary at all.  It's normal.  Every avionics company is ALWAYS working on a next software release, the difference here is that Avidyne gives us a peek behind the curtain to see what might be coming.

Giving a progress update on any certification project is really hard, because the process is open-ended.  The applicant submits a data package to the FAA and then the FAA (nominally) has 60~90 days to review the submitted data.  But the review doesn't automatically end in approval.  The FAA could reject the package, or the FAA can ask the applicant a question about it.  (The "question" is usually as request for additional data or substantiation.)  When the applicant answers the question or provides the requested data, a new 60~90 day clock starts at the FAA.  That can end in the same three ways as above.

In the words of Robert Heinlein, "Waiting is."


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skitheo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 11:58pm
Originally posted by AviSimpson AviSimpson wrote:

They (SA) do not provide certified navigation data.


However, AeroNavData does:
https://aeronavdata.com/aeronautical-navigation-data/source-analysis/

Jeppesen does not have a monopoly, in spite of how it may feel. Most of Avidyne's competitors in the FMS/GPS navigator market have relationships with AeroNavData:

https://aeronavdata.com/capabilities/aeronautical-expertise/fms-collaboration/



Edited by skitheo - 23 Oct 2017 at 11:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSimpson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 10:08am
Originally posted by KIM KIM wrote:


It would be very nice to get an update of the progress of 10.2.1; weeks, months, years or ??

The silence is scary!


I know the current silence on releases and product announcements is a departure from our historical trend. There is no need to be scared, we are working on numerous products and IFD releases.

In regards to 10.2.1, we have been working on it for some time now and it's in the later stages of development. I will not post an update or release notes until we are closer to having it certified. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSimpson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 10:14am
Originally posted by skitheo skitheo wrote:

Originally posted by AviSimpson AviSimpson wrote:

They (SA) do not provide certified navigation data.


However, AeroNavData does:
https://aeronavdata.com/aeronautical-navigation-data/source-analysis/

Jeppesen does not have a monopoly, in spite of how it may feel. Most of Avidyne's competitors in the FMS/GPS navigator market have relationships with AeroNavData:

https://aeronavdata.com/capabilities/aeronautical-expertise/fms-collaboration/


As much as I would like us to be compared with companies like GE Aviation and Rockwell Collins, it is a bit of a stretch. You will find that the majority of the companies listed do not provide products for the part 23 market.

While this looks interesting, you will find that this provider is targeting a larger clientele and therefore it would likely come with a larger price tag.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 11:42am
Originally posted by AviSimpson AviSimpson wrote:


I know the current silence on releases and product announcements is a departure from our historical trend. There is no need to be scared, we are working on numerous products and IFD releases.

In regards to 10.2.1, we have been working on it for some time now and it's in the later stages of development. I will not post an update or release notes until we are closer to having it certified. 

That is good to know.   Thank you.
David Gates
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paulr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2017 at 7:51am
Another data point: the BendixKing update prices for the KLN94 are pretty eye-watering as well. Two years ago, before I got my 540, a single month's update was $280, and I seem to recall that a yearly subscription was in the $1000 range… and that's just for navdata, with no obstacles or charts. I'm not 100% sure but I'd expect they use the same data as the big Honeywell FMS so using those data sources might not be any cheaper, as Simpson says.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TurboPA30 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 12:51pm
http://www.seattleavionics.com/ChartData/Default.aspx?TargetDevice=ksn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Cruiser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 5:43pm
There is a huge difference between the geo-referenced charts Seattle Avionics is supplying in the link above by TurboPA30 and certified NavData used by a GPS to follow an approach course.

These are apples and oranges comparison.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 10:53am
Originally posted by compasst compasst wrote:

I'm requesting that all interested owners of Avidyne IFD units add to this post requesting that Avidyne take a renewed and concerted effort to get charts and data from Seattle Avionics.

SA vs. Jeppesen seems to be a pretty hot topic.  I’ll disclose that I have used Jeppesen products since the early 1980’s.  I started using Jepp electronic charts when they first came out when a tablet PC running Windows XP was the only platform.  That platform has worked flawlessly right up until this year when I installed the IFD540.  The NACO Charts have improved significantly over all those years, so there is no longer a big differentiator.  It is now just my personal preference.

However, from an Avidyne business model, I think it makes good sense that Avidyne has selected Jeppesen as their single data supplier.  Trying to work with multiple vendors is just not cost effective or efficient in bringing a product to market.  Jeppesen is a good choice as they have the largest product portfolio with a world data platform.  But probably most importantly, they are used by many business, fleet, and airline operators.  They even customize charts for many of these operators.  These factors give Avidyne the widest possible market to move into.  The larger their market, the better for us GA folks.

There is some thought that competition is good, so prices will come down if SA competes with Jepp.  I don’t think so.  GA is a small market.  GA IFR is smaller.  GA IFR Avidyne is even smaller.  There just isn’t enough business to spread around.  Data vendor fixed costs will remain the same and market share might drop in half.  That is a business model that often results in vendors exiting the market or price increases to maintain margins.  At the least, it is a business model that may result in less resources and less responsiveness to issues.  I trust Avidyne to maintain a strong business relationship with a single vendor and to work with them on good support and reasonable pricing given the product being delivered.  This is why even after product introduction, a single data vendor is appropriate.  After all, if subscription costs get too high, Avidyne will lose hardware sales.  So, a second vendor may not be the panacea it appears to be and may just have unintended consequences.  I, for one, hope that Avidyne continues to cultivate and stick with a single data vendor.  As a matter of curiosity, are there any certified WAAS GPS units that have more than one data vendor?

Liability costs are also a factor in pricing for certified WAAS GPS data, so pricing comparisons should only be done between certified boxes, not portable devices.

I know that some folks find that charts on the IFD540 can be difficult to read and that they have forgone paying for those charts anyway.  There are certainly free geo-reference NACO chart options that will run on an iPad or Android tablet and interface wirelessly with an IFD.  That is a good alternative when wanting NACO charts over Jeppesen.

Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nrproces Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 7:57am
I also am in. (STILL)

I Love Seattle Avionics.   (Disclaimer; I am also one of those guys who must use Jepps in the day job)

We (day job) are now going to transition from a Microsoft Surface to an IPad in the spring (which it what we should have done in the first place, but that is another topic, better left alone here.)

The whole idea of "Open" is what we came to Avidyne for in the first place. I have been a beta tester for the SA EFB since the beginning, and since I have to use both platforms and 3 different EFB's to do my jobs and hobbies, I am pushing for Seattle Avionics as my choice.

Note: I am totally convinced that their product is the best, it is the simplest and their "Customer Service" is absolutely miles ahead of Jepp.  (I just cringe when it is time to update the subscription because "NO ONE" at that outfit is on the same page with anyone else.)

Ok, said my piece, hopefully we can add them as an alternative.


Edited by nrproces - 14 Feb 2018 at 8:17am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 8:37am
+1 for SA.  I really don't see a problem with having a choice. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 9:04am
From what I read up-thread, SA does not, or cannot supply navdata, just charts only. And outside the US, there are limits on the charts available.

If that is all true, then this is largely a non-sequitur.

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 10:00am
I communicated with SA.

As Orest indicated, they do not do certified nav data, so SA as an option to horrible Jepp pricing and inconsistent customer service is not a viable option.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 10:45am
There is no such thing as "certified" nav data.  A vendor creates a database from the FAA source data and shows compliance to DO-200A.  DO-200 demonstrates the process is repeatable.  The OEM (avidyne in this case) provides an LOA to authorize its use in their product. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 11:22am
Originally posted by ddgates ddgates wrote:

I communicated with SA.

SA as an option to horrible Jepp pricing and inconsistent customer service is not a viable option.

Jepp pricing is horrible based on comparison with SA that doesn’t have a product in this market space.  The entire discussion on pricing is comparing apples and oranges.  I have to think that liability costs of providing data to certified boxes is not trivial.  Jepp also does provide some value added by error checking and validating changes before publishing, especially on approach charts.

I actually was prepared not to subscribe to Jepp charts on the IFD540, because I need a better platform to read and review charts, which a tablet provides.  Instead, I would have used an app such as Foreflight to get my Jepp charts.  However, the IFD100 is a game changer.  I can get the Jepps on both the IFD540 and a tablet.  So, I went with that rather than Foreflight.

If I was a NACO chart user, I would have gone with a free app with geo-referenced charts that connects to the IFD540.  That would have been a fine alternative, and all pricing is horrible when compared to that option.

Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 12:27pm
I’ll never give the big “J” a penny more than necessary. NACO charts on ForeFlight will guide my way very acceptably. However, I’m stuck for the NavData subscriptions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paulr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 2:52pm
The IFD100 is a fine tool for use in the plane. Foreflight complements it very nicely when I'm not in the plane, however. Its flight planning and SA tools are extremely useful to me. Sure, maybe 80% of what they do is available in free equivalent services, but I am willing to pay for the integration, utility, and convenience of having all my aircraft, flight, route, nav, and weather data and services (including access to flight plan and TFR data) in a single app that is easily accessed without need for a PC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 5:24pm
"Jepp also does provide some value added by error checking and validating changes before publishing, especially on approach charts."

This just isn't true.  The users find the mistakes and feed them back to Jepp.  If there is a fix, it usually takes  four or five cycles to get implemented. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 5:45pm
We have a 172.  Jepp wants about $1000 a year for the bundle with charts.  And after I pay that we'll still have a 172.  I'm an example of a price-sensitive consumer.

Last time I looked it appeared it would be less expensive to buy a bundle for a Garmin or BK GPS.  That's not a good message.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

Jepp wants about $1000 a year for the bundle with charts.

We're both in the Northeast.  I'm at:

Revision Service.28-Days.Annual - 1 NavData.IFR.Coverage.Avidyne.IFD540.East/Central USA: $395

Revision Service.JV MFD.14-Days.Annual - 1 Electronic Chart Services.Northeastern US.JV MFD IFR.Coverage:  $350.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidBunin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by tony tony wrote:

"Jepp also does provide some value added by error checking and validating changes before publishing, especially on approach charts."

This just isn't true.  The users find the mistakes and feed them back to Jepp.  If there is a fix, it usually takes four or five cycles to get implemented.

Just because users find errors, doesn't meant that Jepp isn't doing data verification.  It just means that the FAA data has (had) more errors than they found.

For what it's worth, the few times in my career that I have identified errors and brought them to Jepp, the corrections have appeared in three cycles or less.

I'll still complain about the pricing (also a 172 pilot here) but I must give them credit for the services that they do provide.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 8:02am
I could save a couple hundred by reducing the coverage area.  I've considered doing that.  With that package do you also get the ability to put the data and charts on a iPad running IFD100 or ForeFlight?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 9:10am
YES, you get up to four portable locations (including FF), with my plan. One of the coolest things to this package, I'm a Jepp guy from way back, so like to see them everywhere.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 16 Feb 2018 at 9:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 10:00am
David,  The point I was trying to make is that there is nothing magical about Jepp.  SA can provide the data just as easy as Jepp can.  And with my conversations with SA, they want to if given a chance.  I think having a choice and creating completion is a good thing. It would help EVERYONE including the Jepp fans.   Isn't that why we all went with Avidyne in the first place, so that the big mean G wasn't the only game in town?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

I could save a couple hundred by reducing the coverage area.  I've considered doing that.  With that package do you also get the ability to put the data and charts on a iPad running IFD100 or ForeFlight?

I figure if I'm going outside my region, I'll get a trip kit.  I don't do that very often, but I'll do that when I head to Sun-N-Fun in April.

Per Orest's response, I do indeed have it on multiple platforms including an iPAD Mini for the IFD100.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bjsieve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2018 at 2:51am
As a new owner of a 540/440 stack I am shocked at the data costs quoted from Jeppesen. Certainly feels like there running a Monopoly. I’m sure Boeing recognized this when they acquired them, watching their prices rise year afrer year.

I don’t think Avidyne fully understands what a sales killer it is to have such high subscription costs associated with for their boxes. I’m sure they would sell more units if they could work out a solution with SA to lower the data costs. I am fine with Forefloight for charts, approach plates and terrain / obstacles. Just need NavData mostly. Maybe once a year terrain update.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2018 at 8:54am
NavData and terrain (once a year) is what I do. For the price of Jepp charts you can buy the full on ForeFlight package with NACO and the baddest iPad available. Throw in a Stratus and you have everything you will ever need. ForeFlight NavData even includes Jepp terrain.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bjsieve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2018 at 12:21pm
Good idea.  I've been flying with ForeFlight for years and love it.  Just got the 9.7" iPad Pro with iPencil and its mindbogglingly powerful. 

I do fly a decent bit of IFR and FWIW, nav-data is really just what is needed.  All the other eye candy is just super expensive for things not essential.  If you fly your MEA's you have nothing to worry about plus ForeFlight will warn you on terrain if you get near anything sticking up into your flight path. 

Likely just going to get the Stratus 2S so I have a completely separate but highly capable system and be done with it.  Maybe the MBA's at Jeppesen will finally come to realize this and offer a reasonably priced subscription package to light GA aircraft that isn't 1/9th annually the cost of the IFD 540.  Stupid.  Not everyone fly's multi million dollar airplanes that have aviation budgets where a 4 digit subscription cost is a rounding number.
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Paul View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2018 at 10:03pm
What exactly are the rules for flying without current data?  My wife is the instrument pilot in the family and she wants it all to be up to date but I don't know the details of what we would give up if we didn't have it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2018 at 11:57pm
Quote As a new owner of a 540/440 stack I am shocked at the data costs quoted from Jeppesen…I don’t think Avidyne fully understands what a sales killer it is to have such high subscription costs…
Do you not see the irony in this statement?

Quote Just need NavData mostly. Maybe once a year terrain update.

NavData and terrain (once a year) is what I do. For the price of Jepp charts you can buy the full on ForeFlight package with NACO and the baddest iPad available. Throw in a Stratus and you have everything you will ever need. ForeFlight NavData even includes Jepp terrain.

Good idea.  I've been flying with ForeFlight for years and love it.  Just got the 9.7" iPad Pro with iPencil and its mindbogglingly powerful.

I do fly a decent bit of IFR and FWIW, nav-data is really just what is needed.  If you fly your MEA's you have nothing to worry about plus ForeFlight will warn you on terrain if you get near anything sticking up into your flight path.

Likely just going to get the Stratus 2S so I have a completely separate but highly capable system and be done with it.

What exactly are the rules for flying without current data?

It is illegal and dangerous to fly without current navdata.  Without current navdata, the IFD boxes are nothing more than expensive navcoms.  They can’t be used for primary navigation.  $25K to $30K for IFD units that aren’t legal for use just to avoid paying Jepp for navdata.  Instead, buy even more equipment such as an iPAD Pro, a Stratus2, subscribe to Foreflight, and use that for primary navigation including terrain awareness.  So, at this point, after buying all that equipment, there is nothing in the plane that meets the criteria for legal IFR flight.  You might want to reconsider.  I pay $395/year for Jepp navdata.

BTW, if you are purchasing terrain data once per year, you are wasting money.  Terrain data hasn’t been updated since Aug. 2015.

Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2018 at 9:45am
$68.00 once a year to silence the yellow tag on the splash page for one cycle. Thanks for the terrain info. I agree one must keep current NavData to have a legal IFR box. Charts however are much easier to work with on the iPad stuck to the yoke. I thought I was in heaven when the chief pilot consented to “Q service” many years ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2018 at 10:09am
Originally posted by MarkZ MarkZ wrote:

Charts however are much easier to work with on the iPad stuck to the yoke.
Agreed.  Charts on the box is not all that useful.  A Tablet App for NACO or Jepps is necessary to do a good approach briefing.  For someone who doesn't want or pay for Jepps, nothing important is lost by using a Tablet App only.  Since I'm a Jepp guy, the App of my choice was the IFD100, which gives me the charts in both places, which was a nice perk I was willing to pay for.
Originally posted by MarkZ MarkZ wrote:

I thought I was in heaven when the chief pilot consented to “Q service” many years ago.
LOL!  We've come a LONG way baby!
Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LANCE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2018 at 11:27am
Obstacles need to be updated since they change frequently. Terrain pretty much stays the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m016576 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2018 at 11:03am
<p ="msonospacing"="">

<p ="msonospacing"=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 107%; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
Quote </span>It is illegal and dangerous to fly without currentnavdata.  Without current navdata, theIFD boxes are nothing more than expensive navcoms.  They can’t be used for primary navigation.  $25K to $30K for IFD units that aren’t legalfor use just to avoid paying Jepp for navdata. Instead, buy even more equipment such as an iPAD Pro, a Stratus2, subscribeto Foreflight, and use that for primary navigation including terrain awareness.  So, at this point, after buying all thatequipment, there is nothing in the plane that meets the criteria for legal IFRflight.  You might want toreconsider.  I pay $395/year for Jepp navdata.

<p ="msonospacing"=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">BTW, if you are purchasing terrain data once peryear, you are wasting money.</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">  </span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Terraindata hasn’t been updated since Aug. 2015.</span>

That is simply not true for VFR.

"current" NavData is *not* required for VFR flightht.  All that is required, in order to use your panel mount GPS for Vfr flight is that you verify that the GPS points are current and accurate.  you can use an old cycle's data, so long as the points have not changed, and you've verified them. 



Edited by m016576 - 19 Feb 2018 at 12:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2018 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by m016576 m016576 wrote:

That is simply not true for VFR.
"current" NavData is *not* required for VFR flightht.  All that is required, in order to use your panel mount GPS for Vfr flight is that you verify that the GPS points are current and accurate.  you can use an old cycle's data, so long as the points have not changed, and you've verified them. 
Yes of course.  However, the IFD540/440 units are IFR certified WAAS GPSs., the context of the conversation is IFR, and my post context is clear with references to “criteria for IFR flight”.  If I want a VFR GPS, my phone will work just fine.  I don’t need to spend $20K or more and then dumb it down.  I could also just turn the box off and look out the window.
Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m016576 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2018 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by Bob H Bob H wrote:

Originally posted by m016576 m016576 wrote:

That is simply not true for VFR.
"current" NavData is *not* required for VFR flightht.  All that is required, in order to use your panel mount GPS for Vfr flight is that you verify that the GPS points are current and accurate.  you can use an old cycle's data, so long as the points have not changed, and you've verified them. 
Yes of course.  However, the IFD540/440 units are IFR certified WAAS GPSs., the context of the conversation is IFR, and my post context is clear with references to “criteria for IFR flight”.  If I want a VFR GPS, my phone will work just fine.  I don’t need to spend $20K or more and then dumb it down.  I could also just turn the box off and look out the window.

True.  In the AIM there is a mention of the need to update a database for IFR operations, but I can't seem to find anything about GPS databases in the FAR's.  As you know, the AIM is not a regulatory document, just a collection of "best practices".  I remember reading a while back that so long as you verify that the points used for navigation are accurate, that it is legal to use a panel mount GPS for area navigation, just not for precision approaches.  That may have only been for the 430W/530W.  The AFM supp. for the IFD may state a more stringent requirement (I don't know as I keep my databases updated, so it hasn't been a factor to me).  I'd be interested to know what FAR covers GPS databases for part 91 ops, and exactly what the wording is from a legality standpoint, if for nothing else than just my own knowledge.  Do you happen to know the regulation that covers this?

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PA20Pacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 9:04am
Originally posted by m016576 m016576 wrote:

... I'd be interested to know what FAR covers GPS databases for part 91 ops, and exactly what the wording is from a legality standpoint, if for nothing else than just my own knowledge.  Do you happen to know the regulation that covers this?

Thanks

The Limitations section of the FAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual Supplement (AFMS) for your GPS installation will include language that governs requirements for database currency. The language in the current AFMS for the IFD series navigators is as follows:

"5. GPS/SBAS based IFR enroute, oceanic, and terminal navigation is prohibited unless current Navigation and Procedure databases are installed."

Regards,

Bob
Bob Siegfried, II
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 1:42pm

For those of you who want the details:  here is the FAA order that would need to be followed for a provider to supply nav data......

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/ee7b67ddc2d5244886257faf005c3cd8/$FILE/FAA%20Order%208110.55B.pdf

There is absolutely nothing in the order that says Jepp is the only provider of certified nav databases in the world.  Its just jepp and Avidyne went through the process together. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote comancheguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 hours 29 minutes ago at 8:31pm
Just got my Jepp renewal in the mail... 

$1584.95  for two IFD-540s.  This, BTW infuriatingly is NOT enough to have plates on the IFD1000.  For that, they wanted another few hundred (more than foreflight for the year, btw).  

I hate monopolies...

Ken
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teeth6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 hours 18 minutes ago at 9:42pm
Jepp has a newer plan that allows plates on 2 devices that is less costly than their typical 4 device plan.  Mine was definitely less than 1584
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 hours 52 minutes ago at 11:08pm
Originally posted by comancheguy comancheguy wrote:

Just got my Jepp renewal in the mail... 

$1584.95  for two IFD-540s.  This, BTW infuriatingly is NOT enough to have plates on the IFD1000.  For that, they wanted another few hundred (more than foreflight for the year, btw).  

I hate monopolies...

Ken
From Jepp:
We offer a bundle called the Suite Plus package.  This provides charts for the IFD and 4 computers (Windows PC’s or I-Pads), navdata, obstacles and Terrain.  That bundle is $1176.00/year.

ala-carte package:
Charts, northeast coverage (IFD540 and the four computers) $350/year.
Navdata, east central (TX, OK, KS, NE, N/SD EAST) $395.
The ala-cart would be a total of $745/year.

I chose the ala-carte package.  Charts on 4 computers and no extra charge for the IFD100.

 
Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote compasst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8 hours 59 minutes ago at 7:01am
I have the following bundle on my IFD 540 and on my iPad in IFD100, Foreflight, and JeppFD. Yes, I don't like spending over $1000 to support my fun-and-family use of my Cardinal, but having a second supplier of charts for use on my commercial activity is welcome. And my wife wants me to have the Cardinal fully equipped - it just isn't worth experiencing a sudden iPad stoppage because it ran out of power (some panel USB and socket USB power adapters won't charge an iPad in use, let alone keep it running - but Anker socket USB adapters do the job on 12 and 24 vdc sockets). Worse, the iPad gets hot when running Foreflight. Add some sunlight or a warm cabin in winter and - oops, shutdown from being too hot just as I'm turning to intercept the final approach course. The Avidyne is way more reliable although it has also suddenly shut down for loss of GPS signal, although not since the update to 10.2.

Foreflight doesn't care if you use Jepp charts, but they won't let you drop the gov't chart cost.

With Jepp, I have all my data with one download. I don't have to pick and choose states (hope I didn't miss one) as with FlyQ or Foreflight.

Telling Jepp that you want the Avidyne bundle helps with cost, or so I've been told. As you can see from the image below (unsuccessful at resizing), Jepp doesn't do a very good job of telling you what each costs. And I get different answers each time I call them. 


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