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ddgates View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: IFD Data Sources
    Posted: 22 Nov 2017 at 9:44am
I know this is redundant, but it remains relevant.

Seattle Avionics during their version 3.0 webinar reiterated that they would LOVE to be a data supplier for our IFDs.

They are already a provider for other systems, and they reiterated that all of their data is DO-200 compliant (?).

Choice is good.  Giving Jepp a monopoly isn't.

It isn't apples to apples, but in general their data pricing seems much more friendly to GA.  Also, SA did make their FlyQ app bidirectionally integrated with the IFDs.  Jepp was going to, or so it was said, but...

Avidyne, are you listening?

Happy Thanksgiving.


Edited by ddgates - 22 Nov 2017 at 10:06am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2017 at 3:23pm
Assuming it's legal, perhaps Jepp pays Garmin and Avidyne to have exclusive access?  It would be a win-win for them all, if that's the case.  Not so much for us, of course.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2017 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

Assuming it's legal, perhaps Jepp pays Garmin and Avidyne to have exclusive access?  It would be a win-win for them all, if that's the case.  Not so much for us, of course.

Possible, would be very disturbing to me and I imagine many others.  All of us who bought IFD units (and I have two) spent more than chump change to acquire them, and if Jepp is the only game in town, what are our options?

Avidyne has touted open access for developers who want to develop for the IFDs (and in so doing, increasing the value and market positioning of the IFDs).  If Jepp decided, for example, to triple the cost of data, what alternatives would any of us have?

I would think that an arrangement such as your scenario suggests should have been disclosed to buyers before purchase.


Edited by ddgates - 22 Nov 2017 at 4:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2017 at 10:48pm
Originally posted by ddgates ddgates wrote:

Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

Assuming it's legal, perhaps Jepp pays Garmin and Avidyne to have exclusive access?  It would be a win-win for them all, if that's the case.  Not so much for us, of course.

Possible, would be very disturbing to me and I imagine many others.  All of us who bought IFD units (and I have two) spent more than chump change to acquire them, and if Jepp is the only game in town, what are our options?...
Well, I imagined both Garmin GTNs (not chump change either) and Avidyne IFDs would have partnered with Jepp, no need to pick on Avidyne alone.  After all, customers of both have the same Jepp problem.  So what choice do we have you ask, if Jepp has those arrangements and it's all legal?  None, really, short of going experimental or getting out of aviation.  Or urging Seattle to pay more than Jepp does for the exclusive access.  But then, Seattle would not be so cheap anymore either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 3:34am
Not that it's very important because I've moved on using FF, but it would be nice just if Jepp charts on the IFD540/IFD100 were at no extra charge like Avidyne promised.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 8:29am
Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

Assuming it's legal, perhaps Jepp pays Garmin and Avidyne to have exclusive access?  It would be a win-win for them all, if that's the case.  Not so much for us, of course.

Jepp doesn't have exclusive with Garmin.  Garmin fields and sells its own data, but Jepp charts are an OPTION.
 




Edited by ddgates - 23 Nov 2017 at 8:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AzAv8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 12:04pm
Saw the webinar also.   Seattle Avionics stated they are DO200A certified, and they now have data for the US, Europe, Canada, and Mexico.

I believe you can find the webinar on youtube. The above statements were in the front-matter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by ddgates ddgates wrote:

Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

Assuming it's legal, perhaps Jepp pays Garmin and Avidyne to have exclusive access?  It would be a win-win for them all, if that's the case.  Not so much for us, of course.

Jepp doesn't have exclusive with Garmin.  Garmin fields and sells its own data, but Jepp charts are an OPTION.
 
Did not know that, thanks DDGATES.  I have a Garmin 430W in my aircraft as well as an IFD440, and getting anything into either one of them for me requires using Jepp's JDM download software, and my paying $$$ for downloads for both the Garmin and the Avidyne devices.  Call me a sucker for paying for my 430W navdata.  Obviously don't need charts for the 430W or the IFD440 - but I do have them on my Avidyne 5000C MFD, again "thanks" to Jepp and $$$.

Please tell me how can I get the free (like ForeFlight) or cheaper (like Seattle) Garmin navdata for my 430W.  I did not know Garmin offered alternative sources.  


Edited by Catani - 23 Nov 2017 at 2:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 2:36pm
https://www.garmin.com/en-US/blog/aviation/announcement-navigation/


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 94S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by AzAv8r AzAv8r wrote:

Saw the webinar also.   Seattle Avionics stated they are DO200A certified, and they now have data for the US, Europe, Canada, and Mexico.

I believe you can find the webinar on youtube. The above statements were in the front-matter.

I'm pretty sure they said the don't have Canada.  I've been a FlyQ user for several years and all I've seen is that they have the very southern edge of Canada along the US/Canada border.  I would imagine they are working on the rest of it.  They did also say they now have Central America and Caribbean.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 10:01pm
Originally posted by ddgates ddgates wrote:

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/blog/aviation/announcement-navigation/

Thanks, ddgates, but this is what I read on that website:

"Database subscriptions are available for a single Garmin navigator such as the GNS 430W/530W starting at $449, which includes the Garmin Navigation Database, Obstacle and Terrain."

I'm underwhelmed.  That's almost half what I'm paying for navdata and charts for an Avidyne MFD, an IFD440 and a Garmin 430W, all together.  What I was hoping for, and what I thought you were saying, was that Garmin was offering something Avidyne did not: an inexpensive navdata and chart solution of the sort readily available on an iPad.

I suspect that if our navdata and charts were free, we'd be paying significantly more for the avionics to make up for the loss of revenue from Jepp that Garmin and Avidyne would have to make up for some way. I don't have any inside information, so this is just my speculation from the marketplace behavior I see.  But that speculation explains to me why Garmin and Avidyne don't offer government navdata and charts for free, or Seattle navdata and charts for a little more, and I haven't heard any better explanation.


Edited by Catani - 23 Nov 2017 at 10:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2017 at 7:37am
My point was the data comes from G* rather than Jepp.

You _assume_ there is a $$ relationship between Jepp and Av, along the lines of a kickback.  

I doubt it, but who knows?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2017 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by ddgates ddgates wrote:

My point was the data comes from G* rather than Jepp.

Yeah, they can gouge with the best of them - and thanks again for that link.

Originally posted by ddgates ddgates wrote:

You _assume_ there is a $$ relationship between Jepp and Av, along the lines of a kickback.  

I doubt it, but who knows?
No, I don't "assume" it.  As I've said, I'm speculating.  That speculation explains the behavior, but whether it's true or not I can't say as I have no evidence.  Unlike you, however, I would not doubt it, as it explains too much.  

"Who knows?" you ask?  Plenty of people!  But so far, none of them are talking publicly - perhaps because it's closely guarded confidential information not meant for public consumption.  And breaching confidential business information is a common cause for immediate termination.  Which leads us back to speculation.

I do believe, however, it's unfair to attack Avidyne for any rapacious navdata pricing without also including Garmin in the criticism.  Or even worse: holding up Garmin as some kind of praiseworthy role model for Avidyne to emulate.  Your Garmin link proved my point I believe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2017 at 8:04am

I don't believe the DO-200A is the issue.  The expense comes in when trying to get the LOA.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/8110.55A.pdf

This will take resources (and money) away from other things Avidyne is trying to accomplish.  I think that's the issue.  Why should Avidyne devote resources to this when they get nothing back for it?

Ask SA if they are willing to get the LOA on their own without Avidyne's involvement.  I don't think it works that way but I would love to know the answer.  Jepp just sucks. 





Edited by tony - 27 Nov 2017 at 8:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LANCE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2017 at 9:15am
Here's what I don't get . . . everyone who bought the Avidyne units knew that Jepp was the data provider prior to their purchase. That's still the case. I have had none of the problems any of you describe since I renew every 15 months at Sun N Fun, Oshkosh or on the phone. (Jepp gives me three months free for every 12 months I buy since I'm a COPA member.) The Jepp help has been superb. 

You were promised Jepp, you still have Jepp. I could see if Jepp pulled out or Avidyne left you without a data source why there would be a reason for threads like this, but what you were promised was delivered and you're complaining and asking for something that was never promised. That must mean the Avidyne boxes are pretty good and you can't think of anything else to complain about . . lol.


Edited by LANCE - 27 Nov 2017 at 9:17am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2017 at 9:21am
Originally posted by LANCE LANCE wrote:

Here's what I don't get . . . everyone who bought the Avidyne units knew that Jepp was the data provider prior to their purchase. That's still the case. I have had none of the problems any of you describe since I renew every 15 months at Sun N Fun, Oshkosh or on the phone. (Jepp gives me three months free for every 12 months I buy since I'm a COPA member.) The Jepp help has been superb. 

You were promised Jepp, you still have Jepp. I could see if Jepp pulled out or Avidyne left you without a data source why there would be a reason for threads like this, but what you were promised was delivered and you're complaining and asking for something that was never promised. That must mean the Avidyne boxes are pretty good and you can't think of anything else to complain about . . lol.


No Lance, that statement is not true.  I was one of the people who bought early into the prebuy.  There was no supplier for data.  In fact Avidyne was in talks with SA, Jepp and maybe others.  They selected Jepp at the time because it suited their needs, well after we all had invested.   What we were promised was an open system.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2017 at 10:10am
It doesn't matter if there was initially one data source or not.

If Avi has an exclusive agreement with Jepp, then they have to honor that.

If they don't, SA is very likely to be more responsive and less expensive, so it would be advantageous to Avi's customer base to cooperate with SA becoming a data source.

Choice is better than no choice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2017 at 11:00am
I agree, so what can I do to help?  I have called SA on the phone in the past.  They tell me they are willing and ready but they are waiting for avidyne.  So where do we go from here?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2017 at 11:14am
Tony,

Steve Podradchik has stated over and over again that they would like to be a supplier of this data.

It was reiterated during their webinar last week.

I'll contact him directly to see what it would take, but I strongly suspect it requires Avi's involvement.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSimpson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2017 at 4:17pm
We've talked directly to Steve a few times on a few different levels. We have talked about this at length and determined it is a large development effort to support their charts. To correct one mention previous in this thread, they do not offer navigation data (waypoints, approaches, etc). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LANCE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2017 at 1:19am
Originally posted by tony tony wrote:

Originally posted by LANCE LANCE wrote:

Here's what I don't get . . . everyone who bought the Avidyne units knew that Jepp was the data provider prior to their purchase. That's still the case. I have had none of the problems any of you describe since I renew every 15 months at Sun N Fun, Oshkosh or on the phone. (Jepp gives me three months free for every 12 months I buy since I'm a COPA member.) The Jepp help has been superb. 

You were promised Jepp, you still have Jepp. I could see if Jepp pulled out or Avidyne left you without a data source why there would be a reason for threads like this, but what you were promised was delivered and you're complaining and asking for something that was never promised. That must mean the Avidyne boxes are pretty good and you can't think of anything else to complain about . . lol.


No Lance, that statement is not true.  I was one of the people who bought early into the prebuy.  There was no supplier for data.  In fact Avidyne was in talks with SA, Jepp and maybe others.  They selected Jepp at the time because it suited their needs, well after we all had invested.   What we were promised was an open system.  


I was also in on the pre-buy and knew long before I got the unit that Jepp was the provider. But it wouldn't have taken a Rocket Surgeon to figure it out from the beginning since Jepp provided all the data to the Avidyne Entegra and their MFDs.

You were promised an open system and that's what you got - one that talks to different brands of avionics. Open system doesn't mean that you can load it with uncertified data bought from the lowest bidder and be legal to fly.


Edited by LANCE - 28 Nov 2017 at 1:23am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2017 at 3:40am
I hope that Avidyne is investing their limited development resources on delivering solutions to the existing bugs (10.2.1) and already promised functions rather than adding an alternative to the existing Jepp solution. In addition, SA doesn't have the coverage of Jepp, so adding them would only address a part of the customer base.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PA20Pacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2017 at 8:45am
Originally posted by AviSimpson AviSimpson wrote:

We've talked directly to Steve a few times on a few different levels. We have talked about this at length and determined it is a large development effort to support their charts. To correct one mention previous in this thread, they do not offer navigation data (waypoints, approaches, etc). 

Hi Simpson-

Thanks for the clarification regarding the availability of nav data from SA. I looked briefly through their website and reached a similar conclusion regarding navigation databases (as opposed to charts).

From my perspective, it would be nice to have an alternative supplier of navigation data, but it seems that the only certified alternative that has surfaced is the Garmin solution for Garmin boxes. That has not proven to be dramatically less expensive, and apparently has had problems such as the exclusion of certain private airports from the database, even if those airports have instrument approaches. If Avidyne is able to come up with a viable second option for navigation data, it would certainly be a selling point, but I am not holding my breath.

As far as charts, I regard the charts on the IFD 540 as a backup should my iPad EFB fail. I realize that others may use them differently. My feeling is that we have many options for electronic charts in the cockpit on various devices, and I personally do not see the value in Avidyne expending significant development resources to offer an alternative to Jeppesen in this area. If it easy, I would be happy to see it, but I would rather see limited development resources spent in other areas that will extend the value and useful life of my investment in Avidyne products.

Regards,

Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FlyingCOham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2017 at 1:33pm
Simpson,

I'll sort of echo Bob's comment.  I don't buy the charts for the IFD because the I need the whole chart as large and complete as possible, front and center.  An iPad or other EFB on the yoke is much better for me and the cost is DRAMATICALLY lower. 

Please focus on the fixes and UI improvements (for example: ALL timers switch to M:S at 9 minutes & 59 seconds).

Just my opinion...

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobsV35B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2017 at 5:39pm
Me Too!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2017 at 6:37pm
Seems to me nav data is more important than charts, which we have available to us from many sources.

Lacking a coherent navdata source, must confess I can't see a strong reason to switch chart source.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HenryM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2017 at 9:42pm
So does this means the Dynon HDX systems that use SA data don’t include approach procedures? You’d have to call up a geo-ref chart and follow it down? I know some of the charts outside the US include Jeppesen data, but I thought US data that is provided free came from SA. That would make a big difference in the choice of IFR systems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nrproces Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2017 at 7:37am
Henry, you hit the jackpot.
Either it is, or it isn't.
If it works there, why not here?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PA20Pacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2017 at 9:22am
Originally posted by HenryM HenryM wrote:

So does this means the Dynon HDX systems that use SA data don’t include approach procedures? You’d have to call up a geo-ref chart and follow it down? I know some of the charts outside the US include Jeppesen data, but I thought US data that is provided free came from SA. That would make a big difference in the choice of IFR systems.

Hi Henry-

The text describing the Dynon HDX on their website includes the following statement: "SkyView HDX is additionally compatible with popular IFR navigators like the Avidyne IFD series and the GTN/GNS series."
This suggests to me that the HDX is an integrated PFD/MFD/Engine Monitor system that does NOT include an IFR approved, approach capable GPS navigator. If that is true, then the Dynon HDX would need to be interfaced with an IFR certified approach capable GPS along with the appropriate nav database in order to be used for instrument approaches.

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Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HenryM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2017 at 10:14am
I was using the HDX just as an example. I had not realized that if a device uses SA data that it would not have the data needed for approach procedures, other than showing charts. SA lists Dynon, Aspen and even Bendix/King as its customers. Dynon is saying they will have certified devices soon. They will probably be less expensive than the current ones on the market, but I would like to know if they have significant limitations, given their navigation data source. It would not be an apples to apples comparison with Avidyne.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2017 at 9:18am
I could care less about charts on the IFDs, I much prefer them externally, either paper or on a tablet.  I can't understand how people are willing to pay so much for this feature (subscription) when much more user friendly and cheaper options are available.  That being said, I truly care less about a second source for charts - a second source for data would be great.

I hope they put their resources towards other things such as dual ADS-B in, Android support, and modifying the IFD simulators to have an externally accessible data stream (to allow 3rd partys to integrate the IFD in flight simulators).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2017 at 9:51pm
The Avidyne subscription includes Jepp charts on up to four devices, besides the IFD, including FF and the Jepp app, which is exactly what I'm looking for.

The cost for Jepp charts is about the same as Nav Can charts, and it gives me identical format for US & Canada.

* Orest

Edited by oskrypuch - 01 Dec 2017 at 9:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2017 at 11:04am
Originally posted by oskrypuch oskrypuch wrote:

The Avidyne subscription includes Jepp charts on up to four devices, besides the IFD, including FF and the Jepp app, which is exactly what I'm looking for.

The cost for Jepp charts is about the same as Nav Can charts, and it gives me identical format for US & Canada.

* Orest

It's only exactly what you are looking for now that you've gone to the "enlightened" side ;)  I don't plan on buying a sole purpose apple device for the airplane.


Edited by brou0040 - 02 Dec 2017 at 11:04am
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oskrypuch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2017 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by brou0040 brou0040 wrote:

It's only exactly what you are looking for now that you've gone to the "enlightened" side ;)  I don't plan on buying a sole purpose apple device for the airplane.

When I brought it into the house, I hung my head in shame, was scolded by the Mrs., and my son just shook his head.

The iThingy sits hidden in my flightbag, and is a silly priced single purpose device. But with Jepp getting out the app business, and wanting to play with the IFD100, my arm was finally twisted.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 02 Dec 2017 at 3:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skitheo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 11:57pm
Unfortunately, as pointed out in another thread, SA does not sell NavData. AeroNavData does.

While GE Aviation and Rockwell Collins no longer sell to Part 23 market, Garmin and Honeywell/Bendix/King sure do.


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