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IFD And VOR Approaches

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rjt View Drop Down
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    Posted: 31 Jan 2023 at 8:00pm
Have dual Garmin G5’s coupled to Garmin GFC500 and IFD440 Version 10.3. The problem is the IFD presents the GPS Course to the G5 instead of the approved radial for a VOR approach. The FMS GPS Course bring different causes the plane to go off course.  If one tries to change to the correct course on the G5 HSI, the IFD ignores the new setting. Additionally the G5 will not present the option to set the Course unless the IFD is in VLOC Mode. 

Been discussing with Avidyne tech support. No resolution yet. Ironically, if one changes the IFD Source back to GPS from VLOC, the aircraft tracks correctly but is not legal. 

Anyone else seeing this behavior? Any ideas?
Ron
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2023 at 11:53pm
I'm not sure about the G5 but if you have another CDI and can monitor the needle then you can leave the IFD in GPS mode...

AIM 1-2-3-c-5:
“Use of a suitable RNAV system as a means to navigate on the final approach segment of an instrument approach procedure based on a VOR, TACAN or NDB signal, is allowable. The underlying NAVAID must be operational and the NAVAID monitored for final segment course alignment”.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sanjiv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 2:56am
So you saying IFD440 is in VLOC mode, G5 is in heading mode and your G500 is tracking GPS course? Where do you switch G500 from GPSS mode to heading mode? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Toadpilot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 9:18am
I have a close setup to the one you describe. You are correct that you need to be in VLOC to be able to dial in the VOR course in the G5. Before starting the approach, I switch my autopilot to heading, my IFD to VLOC, dial in my first VOR radial (assuming I am flying GPS - VLOC mode), then I switch back to GPS-VLOC on the IFD. Once the IFD transitions from GPS to VLOC, the G5 switches to the VOR course you dialed in. I do this same procedure for ILS approaches.

Jeff Hullinger
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Toadpilot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 9:29am
Also, it is legal to have the autopilot fly a VOR approach with the GPS as long as you can monitor the approach with a VOR needle. For the G5, your number two needle can be set to VOR (tune to the correct VOR frequency for the approach), and you can monitor the tail of the VOR needle on your HSI to ensure it is tracking the proper radial/course for the approach. I fly part 135 operations, and this is the technique I use on my .293/.297 checkride for flying VOR approaches. If an approach is labelled as "VOR or GPS," then you can fly it solely using your GPS. If it is labelled as only "VOR," then you would have to use the technique I mentioned above in order to have the GPS legally fly the VOR approach.
Jeff Hullinger
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SKY497/STEC60-2/G5 AI/G5 HSI
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rpostmo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 10:10am
What is the GPS navigator set to in this case?   Direct-To? something
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 10:43am
Originally posted by rpostmo rpostmo wrote:

What is the GPS navigator set to in this case?   Direct-To? something

The VOR approach procedure brings up the full GPS routing just like any other approach. With this technique, the IFD needs to stay in GPS mode instead of being allowed to auto-switch to VLOC. Rotating the nav mode selector to GPS when GPS -> VLOC appears will cancel the auto switching. Now the VOR approach can be flown like a LNAV only approach while monitoring the VOR raw data for procedure navigation compliance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rjt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 2:53pm
Guys,
Lots of good suggestions on this situation.   

My issue is I bought this plane with a Garmin 430W and dual G5's that worded fine before giving in to my "addiction" to upgrade to Avidyne 440.  Now it seems like a loss of functionality unless one does work arounds that the sometimes lack-luster Garmin 430 did not require. Avidyne functionality is better than this.  My idea is to have the program use the radial specified on the approach when changing to VLOC mode or at least let the user change the COURSE value on the G5 in VLOC mode. 

Appreciate all the good input.
Ron
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 4:18pm
Originally posted by rjt rjt wrote:

Guys,
Lots of good suggestions on this situation.   

My issue is I bought this plane with a Garmin 430W and dual G5's that worded fine before giving in to my "addiction" to upgrade to Avidyne 440.  Now it seems like a loss of functionality unless one does work arounds that the sometimes lack-luster Garmin 430 did not require. Avidyne functionality is better than this.  My idea is to have the program use the radial specified on the approach when changing to VLOC mode or at least let the user change the COURSE value on the G5 in VLOC mode. 

Appreciate all the good input.
Ron

Did the Garmin 430W automatically slew the VLOC course for VOR approaches? I ask because the G5/GFC500 Pilot Guide seems to indicate automatic course slewing may occur only for localizer based approaches. Additionally, the VOR approach setup in the G5/GFC500 manual states that the VOR course needs to be set via the menu on the G5 HSI with the external navigator in VLOC.

In my experience with this nearly identical setup, my G5 HSI will automatically slew to the front course for localizer based (including backcourse) approaches; however, VOR based approaches need to have the VOR course manually set as described in the G5/GFC500 manual.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rjt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 7:49pm
Yes, the G430W would slew the the course on the G5's for VOR approaches from what I understand from pilot who flew this approach. Even if it did not automatically do it, one could set it manually. 

For localizers the 440 works great by auto slewing the front course. I would be happy if the 440 would just let one set the COURSE on the G5 on VOR approaches as defined in the G5?GFC500 Manual; the G430W permitted it. 
Ron
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 9:07pm
Originally posted by rjt rjt wrote:

Yes, the G430W would slew the the course on the G5's for VOR approaches from what I understand from pilot who flew this approach. Even if it did not automatically do it, one could set it manually. 

For localizers the 440 works great by auto slewing the front course. I would be happy if the 440 would just let one set the COURSE on the G5 on VOR approaches as defined in the G5?GFC500 Manual; the G430W permitted it. 

Below is the Garmin G5/GFC500 manual's excerpt regarding setting up for a VOR approach that is going to be flown in VLOC. My IFD540, dual G5, & GFC500 works as described below except for one item in step 2. On the IFD, instead of pressing a CDI indicator on the navigator to put the navigator in VLOC, I either need to wait for the IFD to automatically switch to VLOC or manually place the IFD in VLOC by rotating the Nav Mode Selector until VLOC is indicated. Once the IFD is in VLOC with a VOR frequency tuned, the desired VOR course can be set by going through the menu on the G5 HSI. 

As mentioned upthread, the desired VOR course can be pre-set by manually selecting VLOC on the IFD, setting the VOR course through the G5 HSI menu, then returning the IFD to GPS mode or GPS->VLOC mode as appropriate. Finally, NAV may have to be re-selected on the GFC500 to re-establish IFD GPS course guidance.

If your setup does not work like that, then I would suggest contacting Avidyne Tech Support for guidance.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rjt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 10:16pm
dmtilder said:
I either need to wait for the IFD to automatically switch to VLOC or manually place the IFD in VLOC by rotating the Nav Mode Selector until VLOC is indicated. Once the IFD is in VLOC with a VOR frequency tuned, the desired VOR course can be set by going through the menu on the G5 HSI.

Yes, pretty much everything you said above, I have tried.  When I crossed the IAF, the IFD went from GPS->VLOC to VLOC.  Then I Open up the G5 and went to the COURSE Setting; it was populated with the GPS COURSE of 293 from the FMS for this specific approach.  Changed to correct COURSE Radial of 288 degrees. Closed out of the G5 and nothing happened.  The autopilot kept flying the 293 GPS COURSE.  Checked G5 again: COURSE showed my 288 degree setting but was ignored.

Here is one way it would work.  While on the ground, change to VLOC, input the correct radial of 288.  Leave in VLOC mode and fly the approach. But it seems if you don't get the correct COURSE set before crossing the IAF which triggers auto change to VLOC, one is locked out.

Yep.  Have been working with Avidyne Tech support during the install and all this follow up. No answers yet.

Question: Are you using Version 10.3?

Thank you "dmtllder" for your detailed input.
Ron
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 10:58pm
I’m still using AviOS 10.2.6.1 in my IFD540. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 11:30pm
I have several questions:

When you set the VOR course to 288, was the course indicator on the G5 HSI green in color?

When you say the autopilot continued to fly the 293 GPS course, what autopilot/flight director roll mode was indicated at that instance (VOR, GPS, ROL, HDG, or TRK)? 

Keep in mind, if the GFC500 roll mode is GPS when the IFD changes from GPS to VLOC, the GFC500 roll mode will revert to wings level ROL mode and NAV needs to be re-selected to get the GFC500 to follow the VOR/LOC set course. The same ROL mode reversion happens when the IFD goes from VLOC to GPS also. 

If the VOR procedure was active in the IFD and the final approach course was 293 magnetic on the IFD, that should overlay the VOR 288 radial displayed on the approach chart. Due to magnetic variation changes since the VOR was installed in the mid 1900’s, it’s not unusual for there to be a five or more degree difference between a VOR radial and its present day magnetic course. Is it possible in your specific situation that the 293 magnetic course and the VOR 288 radial are one and the same and if so, how do you know the GFC500 wasn’t being guided by the VOR 288 radial versus the overlaying 293 magnetic GPS course?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rjt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2023 at 7:39am
You may have hit on the solution to the VOR issue I experiencing; two different versions of software. The version you are running was also the version I was using in my other airplane along with an Aspen and it worked as expected.  The newer version I'm running worked fine with the removed Garmin 430W. Only the IFD with V 3.0 seems to be the problem.

To your point in the last paragraph, referring to the VOR-A approach into A/P 12V (Ona airport), the COURSE of 293 degrees from HVQ (the IAF) to SPEDI is the equivalent of the 288 degree radial today. The same situation exists at all VORs that I have looked at but just to a different magnitude when using the Avidyne IFD Trainer.

So, if the IFD software V 3.0 is going to populate the COURSE value on the G5 in VLOC mode, it needs to be the radial value not the FMS GPS course value.  Secondly, the software needs to use the pilot input of the correct COURSE from the G5 in VLOC Mode which worked in the earlier version of the software.

I have experienced the GFC500 reverting to ROL Mode as you indicated.  It required the autopilot be returned to NAV mode to follow the approach.  Ironically, when I flipped back to GPS mode on the approach, the plane re-joined the course line.

"dmtidler", thanks for the input.  I think you may have found the missing link. 
Ron
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2023 at 8:01am
Interesting…I’ve waited to make the jump to AviOS 10.3.x.x until at least the next bug fix version is out. This is the first I’ve read of this behavior and I’m interested in if anyone else is seeing the same behavior in their AviOS 10.3.x.x/G5 setups?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2023 at 2:52pm
I went out and tested your scenario in my airplane on a similar VOR-A using a local VOR that has a six degree difference between magnetic courses and underlying VOR radials. I saw that with a VOR approach procedure in the flight plan, my G5 HSI uses the magnetic course for the final from the IFD each time when switching from GPS to VLOC. I tried pre-selecting the correct VOR course and going back to GPS; at the next VLOC the VOR course was once again set to the IFD magnetic course for final. Unlike your description; however, I could always adjust the G5 HSI VOR course in VLOC through the G5 HSI menu.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rjt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2023 at 5:50pm
dmtidler,
That was nice of you to go out and test the VOR scenarios.  Sounds like your version of the software is working as it should.  At this point since my engine is being pulled in next few days for possible rebuild, I probably should just wait and see what Avidyne Support comes up with in the next few months while the work is being done.

Thanks again.

Ron
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2023 at 10:46am
Originally posted by Sanjiv Sanjiv wrote:

So you saying IFD440 is in VLOC mode, G5 is in heading mode and your G500 is tracking GPS course? Where do you switch G500 from GPSS mode to heading mode? 

P.S. It's a GFC500, not a G500. The G500 is a big screen PFD, not an a/p... completely different.
Vince
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