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New MLB100 978 MHz ADS-B In Receiver |
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ddgates 
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 Posted: 21 Apr 2015 at 3:23pm |
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Jim:
They are going to get your money one way or another!
Yes, the TAS XXXA displays on the 540. If it were my birthday, and I had a nickel burning a hole in my pocket, I would first do a PFD. But with the 540, even though I already have one, I would not do an MFD. I'd do the TAS next (I already did). But I'd really like a DFC90............... David |
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David Gates
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SB Jim
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Posted: 21 Apr 2015 at 2:10pm |
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That's nice, but it's still a "high end" solution. I'm looking for something more budget oriented. I just spent my "high end" money on a 540 and a 340. |
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AviSimpson
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Posted: 21 Apr 2015 at 1:07pm |
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+1 That's exactly right.
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Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
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oskrypuch
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Posted: 21 Apr 2015 at 1:06pm |
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Yes, of course TAS6xx traffic it will display on a 540, it will also display on an ASPEN, G500, and indeed any PFD or MFD.
It is in standard industry traffic data format, available on both a rs232 and 429 data line. It does not suffer from the TIS-B fragmented standards. Further, with the upcoming free "A" upgrades, 1090 TIS-B will be blended in, not that important, but it will extend sensitivity and accuracy a bit and add some more data tag fields. One additional benefit to the TAS6xx units. * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 21 Apr 2015 at 1:10pm |
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SB Jim
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Posted: 21 Apr 2015 at 12:55pm |
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Hi David, I agree that it's very valuable and a great product, but I don't have a suitable display for one either (unless it can display on the IFD 540). I'm not sure where I would see the traffic info. My WAG of an installed out the door cost may be too high, but if I had something north of $10k for avionics today I'd probably want an Aspen PFD 1000 Pro. Regards, Jim
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AviSimpson
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Posted: 21 Apr 2015 at 11:46am |
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Thank you, everyone, for your feedback on what you're looking for in an ADS-B IN "all-in-one" box.
I respectfully disagree that there is any hole in our product line. If there is great concern about being outside of the coverage area to receive the air to air 1090 from a 978 rebroadcast, we offer the TAS-A. Not only are you going to see Mode A/C/S transponders but you will receive the extremely accurate position from ADS-B if it is available. Things may evolve out of the "ML" series of ADS-B IN boxes in the future.
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Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
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flybikeski
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Posted: 21 Apr 2015 at 10:44am |
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Thank you for the reply. I think there is enough evidence on this thread that you can't check the "ADS-B In" box until you have dual-band. I suppose there is a thread over in the 340 thread demanding a remote transponder but that seems more a feature than a basic function. You've left a hole in your product line so I sincerely hope you'll work with other mfgs to allow them to provide dual-band solutions to the 540 in the meantime. |
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ddgates
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Posted: 21 Apr 2015 at 9:54am |
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Jim:
Your reasoning is compelling; I've thought the same thing. My GDL 39 has dual frequency as do they all. I don't understand why all these vendors (Avidyne, Aspen, etc) are having such time bringing rebranded products to market. Next time you are in Tucson, look me up. And BTW I did far better than $15K on my TAS. Just saying... I think the active setup is valuable. Even on the ground. Edited by ddgates - 21 Apr 2015 at 9:58am |
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David Gates
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SB Jim
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Posted: 21 Apr 2015 at 9:49am |
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Simpson,
Dual band receivers (such as my GDL 39; these now sell new for $700) allows me to receive air to air traffic broadcast from any aircraft with ADS-B Out (978 or 1090 ES). I noticed on my recent Tucson trip that there are times, even at 12,500', where I am out of range of a ground station, therefore I get no traffic info. from ATC even though I am talking to them on flight following and I am on an assigned squawk code in radar contact. Radar does not equal ADS-B Broadcast capability. In those times a dual band receiver is valuable as I will get traffic info. from all ADS-B Out equipped aircraft. Right now I would guess that most aircraft with ADS-B Out are using 1090 ES (like the Garmin 330 and AXP 340). We would miss all that traffic. Yes, Avidyne's active traffic system is a solution, but it's roughly $15k installed. If Garmin can build and sell a GDL 39 for $700 with dual band in Avidyne should be able to get it done, with the ability to interface to panel displays (IFD 540) for under $3k. Regards, Jim |
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AviSimpson
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Posted: 21 Apr 2015 at 9:30am |
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Dual band boxes are certainly on our roadmap however, it won't be something that is completed soon. The dual frequency ADS-B IN box should be considered an excellent option when they exist but they are, unfortunately, not an active program at this time. |
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Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
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brou0040
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Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 11:43pm |
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Yes
Exactly, people that go the AXP340 route don't care about the ADS-B transmitter part, I believe that it would be in Avidyne's best interest to concentrate on the mlB2xx over any mlX2xx due to this. Unless I'm misunderstanding part of the ADS-B coverage... I believe that eventually, maybe not right at 2020, but most airplanes are going to upgrade to ADS-B out. Right now most airplanes have mode C although they don't need it. Sure we won't get EVERYBODY, but I don't think it's as grim as people think. The cost benefit simply isn't there for a TAS unit. I'd prefer to go with an integrated dual IN Avidyne system, but if it's late in the development line, I'll find another unit. No sense in going ADS-B blind while I'm out compliant. Edit: It looks like I'm getting my naming scheme wrong. I was trying to imply that the X mean transceiver, B meant receiver, 1 meant single band in, and 2 meant dual band in, but I see that all the products are currently single band in. Since they are all single band, I suggest looking at the customer base to see if the interest is truly single band in over dual band in. Maybe it's just because I'm out west, but this seems to be backwards compared to what I'm hearing.
Edited by brou0040 - 21 Apr 2015 at 9:17am |
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comancheguytoo
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Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 7:00pm |
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Yea, thanks Simpson. I doubt serious people expect everything all at once for the portable price.
Even TAS doesn't catch a non-transponder Champ or Cub, either currently or after 2020, so trying to make every bad guy a blip isn't realistic. (unless you're driving an AWACS) My point was only that talking strictly ADS-B air-to-air, the 1090out / 978in dilemma seemed somewhat inconsistent with other market options. Just wanted to make sure I was reading correctly that the MLB would only support 978. As a new 540/340 owner I'm keenly interested in completing my Avidyne ADS-B package. If you think the dual frequency IN option could come in the future, please let us know. Thanks for the response. |
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AviSimpson
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Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 3:22pm |
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We could knock out 2 of those 3 at least in house and I think some day in the near future we will. We of course made it clear what the BT is for with the keyboard announcement. The WiFi unlock in the near future could answer your last point.
In the ideal world, Capstone was suppose to be that. Unfortunately, like Jake has mentioned in the past, everyone has their own flavor of the Capstone protocol. |
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oskrypuch
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Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 3:10pm |
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J, I think you may be off on that as a general statement. Do remember, there is a world outside of the CONUS (the only place you will see TIS-B), and for that matter in many places/altitudes in the US there is no ADS-R reception. However, certainly for your personal circumstances that may well be true. * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 20 Apr 2015 at 3:11pm |
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ddgates
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Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 3:02pm |
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Simpson:
Appreciate that. What would be the bomb is - buy one ADS-B device - say the MLB100. Display TRFC and WX on:
That is what Capstone was supposed to accomplish; single format for interconnectivity. In that mode, user buys one box, not 2 or 3, to do the job. Edited by ddgates - 20 Apr 2015 at 3:03pm |
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David Gates
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AviSimpson
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Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 2:55pm |
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I don't think what's being asked for is outrageous. I'll do some research our end so we can see what it would take to get it added to a platform like the MLB/MLX series.
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Simpson Bennett
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ddgates
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Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 1:37pm |
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I think he is right.
What we would really like, though, is a device which talks across platforms, i.e., Avidyne MFD and Aspen MFD. Aspen and Avidyne collaborated on the driver software for the DFC-90, why not align so that each company's ADS-B box displays on the other company's MFD? Can it really be that hard?
Edited by ddgates - 20 Apr 2015 at 1:38pm |
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David Gates
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flybikeski
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Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 1:31pm |
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AviSimpson, I don't think anyone on this forum expects Stratus pricing on certified equipment, so no worries there. I think it will be pretty clear in the market (FreeFlight, Aspen, etc.) what certified dual-band ADS-B receivers should be priced at. I think the point is your customers want one. Maybe more so than the MLX2xx products. But I'm just guessing at that... |
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jblodgett
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Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 1:24pm |
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Thank you for your response. I do not expect that any certified installed solution be similar in price point to the Stratus/iPad solution but it needs to be far less than your TAS/MLB solution. I believe there are vanishingly small advantages to the TAS approach that do not justify its cost. Not for me at any rate.
Added comment: Your MLB100 costs $2495. That seems reasonable given all the ridiculous hoops the FAA makes you jump through. But why should a dual frequency version cost much more than that? Edited by jblodgett - 20 Apr 2015 at 1:37pm |
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AviSimpson
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Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 12:20pm |
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Unfortunately, we will never compete on a price level with a stratus/Foreflight configuration in a panel mount solution.
While you are right, that a dual band transceiver might solve some of these issues and possibly at a lower cost (L3 Lynx MSRP ranges from 10k to 15k and Aspen AXR200 $4-5k) than a TAS setup, it might not give you the full traffic picture. It's definitely something that I will bring up to the team as another line of the MLX series. Though it probably won't be at a Stratus/Foreflight price.
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Simpson Bennett
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AviSimpson
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Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 11:36am |
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Got it. I just wanted to know if it was an issue of feature sets or not. You're right a TAS isn't going to be for everyone and we know that. My point was that if you are going to be doing a lot of flying in an area that doesn't have nearby ground stations or has aircraft that don't need to participate in the ADS-B world, your best bet for supplementing your "see and avoid" is a TAS. Just a FYI, the MLX210 list price is $4,995 and the MLX200 list price is $3,495. |
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Simpson Bennett
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jblodgett
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Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 11:30am |
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"what are you trying to gain from a dual band system that a TAS system wouldn't provide?"
We are trying to find a built-in solution that gives us air-to-air (broadcast) reception of all ADS-B signals without spending the minimum of around $15k it would take to do it with your TAS/MLB100 combination. Most of us are currently using Stratus or Garmin portable units with iPads and have that capability for well less than $2k. I know you have an interest in selling your TAS systems but it is just not realistic for you to expect people to follow that route. For that matter, I believe there really is no future for TAS systems. I would really like to see you come out with a dual frequency ADS-B receiver to interface to my IFD540/AXP340/EX600 avionics stack. Until you do, I will continue to rely on my Stratus/iPad combination. Edited by jblodgett - 20 Apr 2015 at 11:31am |
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oskrypuch
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Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 10:56am |
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I have TAS and love it, and it does fill in all the gaps.
BUT it is quite expensive. Although I fly a lot in the US, being based in Canada it made sense for me, we'll never have TIS-B here. Simpson, what I think folks are asking for is to bridge the gap between 978 and 1090, when a ground ADS-R ground station is not in range. * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 20 Apr 2015 at 2:57pm |
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AviSimpson
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Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 10:55am |
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David, You're absolutely correct. I went off of the presumption that ADS-B OUT was already being solved.
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flybikeski
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Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 10:48am |
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Affordability. I just plain can't afford TAS and I'm sure other pilots are in the same place. To say we should go out and get your TAS product is a little like telling a group of homeless people that the solution to their problem is that they should buy homes. Easier said than done. Edited by flybikeski - 20 Apr 2015 at 10:52am |
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ddgates
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Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 10:46am |
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Simpson:
Not to split hairs, but if you do that TASxxxA and the MLB100, you will also need ADS-B out, e.g. the AXP 340. |
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David Gates
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AviSimpson
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Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 10:14am |
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Sorry for the delay in getting a response to this thread...
Right now, if you're looking for "dual band" traffic your best bet is the TAS6xxA and either the MLB100 or MLX series. The TAS-A will incorporate ADS-B traffic, when available, with the active traffic returns. It will also give you a more tailored protection zone around the aircraft and not just the "hockey puck". We've heard the request for dual band systems from a few different places. Just out of my curiosity, what are you trying to gain from a dual band system that a TAS system wouldn't provide? |
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Simpson Bennett
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oskrypuch
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Posted: 19 Apr 2015 at 9:13pm |
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The Aspen units are rebadged Freeflight units. They will be sold at a bit of a premium, but will not require an unlock code. Freeflight's units apparently will work too, but Aspen will charge an unlock code to let them work.
* Orest |
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MikeK
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Posted: 19 Apr 2015 at 4:51pm |
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I believe they have already stated (can't recall where at the moment) that it does not do this. You can have TAS-605A traffic (with 1090-IN and TAS) or you can have MLB-100 traffic (978-IN), but you cannot merge and reconcile the two. If you have a TAS-605A and you want to use the MLB-100 for FIS-B, you can, but you have to disable the TIS-B or send it to a different display.
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ddgates
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Posted: 19 Apr 2015 at 4:38pm |
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The ARX200 is the successor to the ARX100 -
the 100 was supposed to have been available this past summer....but, wait, it isn't. Nor is the ARX200. The ARX200 doesn't appear to accept the 540 as position source, not does it appear to accept the newest generation Garmin boxes. And the hook is, if/when it comes out - it will display on the Aspen but not on the Avidyne. The same is true - the MLBXXX will display on the Avidyne, but not the Aspen. They were supposed to be working together, following Capstone.
Edited by ddgates - 19 Apr 2015 at 4:42pm |
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David Gates
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Gary T
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Posted: 19 Apr 2015 at 4:35pm |
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Interesting Aspen Avionics website statement:
ARX200Dual-Band In ADS-B Receiver Certified ADS-B receiver for aircraft with a Mode S with Extended Squitter (ES) transponder and WAAS GPS installed. Transponder: Existing Mode S + ES GPS: Existing WAAS GPS Garmin GNS 430W, 530W, Free Flight 1201 Availability: Q3 2015 |
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Gary-T
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flybikeski
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Posted: 19 Apr 2015 at 3:39pm |
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Was not looking for one of those. However seeing more is better than seeing less. (For me and my flying profile. A MLB100 looks great for many folks). Edited by flybikeski - 19 Apr 2015 at 3:55pm |
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brou0040
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Posted: 19 Apr 2015 at 12:04pm |
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I'm not sure what the development timeline is for Avidyne's ADS-B equipment is, but I'd suggest that a dual-band IN solution be up next after the MLB100 and before the MLX200 or MLX210. They've been driving people towards the AXP340 out solution so those who went that route have no benefit from a MXL200 or MLX210 over an "MLB200" and will be stuck waiting again if they are looking for a dual band IN solution.
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SB Jim
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Posted: 19 Apr 2015 at 10:44am |
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There is no device made that captures all the traffic. |
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flybikeski
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Posted: 19 Apr 2015 at 1:43am |
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I reread this thread and see that Steve J. did say they are planning dual-band as we get closer to the mandate. I guess I need to be patient.... |
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flybikeski
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Posted: 19 Apr 2015 at 1:23am |
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Is there a dual-band MLB2xx in the works? Because right now a dual-band Stratus or a dual-band iLevil and an iPad outperforms a 540 and an MLB100. Not to mention price. I really want traffic up on the panel, but (at least for my flying in the west) it needs to capture all traffic, not just when near a ground station. I do acknowledge certified equipment lags portables so I understand why Avidyne doesn't have it, but I hope they can show a reasonably affordable path with planned equipment or support of other equipment. |
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n7ifr
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Posted: 19 Apr 2015 at 1:22am |
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...as I understand it, Avidyne currently has no way to combine the TAS unit and the MLB into a single, integrated traffic picture. You could connect the TAS unit to one display and the MLB to another, but that would (IMO) be really confusing. The L3 and Garmin products claim to provide dual-band ADS-B and TAS all integrated into a single traffic picture that incorporates data from all three sources.
[/QUOTE]
My last rumor control indicated that the TAS6XX"A" will synchronize both interrogated X'ponder traffic with 1090 IN ADS-B and display both on the 540... I would only "assume" with the MLB100, the added 980 IN would also be synchronized to block duplicate bogies. Maybe a comment from the Avidyne staff?? Tom W.
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MikeK
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Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 11:45pm |
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Tom, With the TAS-6xxA and the MLB-100, you could theoretically have the 1090 and 978 ADS-B IN bands *and* TAS for traffic that doesn't have ADS-B OUT yet. However, as I understand it, Avidyne currently has no way to combine the TAS unit and the MLB into a single, integrated traffic picture. You could connect the TAS unit to one display and the MLB to another, but that would (IMO) be really confusing. The L3 and Garmin products claim to provide dual-band ADS-B and TAS all integrated into a single traffic picture that incorporates data from all three sources.
Edited by MikeK - 18 Apr 2015 at 11:45pm |
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MysticCobra
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Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 9:54pm |
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There are a lot of Avidyne customers who have no intention of spending the big $$$ to get a TASxxxA system. Folks are trying to figure out what makes sense to satisfy the 2020 mandate and get the best bang-for-the-buck TIS-B out of that. Had Avidyne had the option for a UAT-out, I would have far preferred that to the AXP340 1090ES-out that I ended up choosing. I think a lot of us low-and-slow folks think it's foolish to have a 1090ES-out transponder, but if you need one today and don't want to go Garmin...you don't have much choice.
Edited by MysticCobra - 18 Apr 2015 at 9:55pm |
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n7ifr
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Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 7:06pm |
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There are only two frequencies: 978 & 1090. For air-to-air, and no ground TIS-R repeaters, to receive both, you need ability to receive both (IN) frequencies...
Hence, the Avidyne combo TAS xxxA (with 1090 IN) and MLB100 (with 978 IN) will pick up both air-to-air, and when within a ground station range (FIS-R), your AXP340 1090 Out triggers both from the ground station, so you receive both as well. When out in the boonies (no FIS-R), with Air-to-air, the TAS "A" receives 1090 IN and MLB100 receives 978 IN, but someone else out there will only receive your 1090 OUT (AXP340) unless they also have Dual IN receive capability. Tom W.
Edited by n7ifr - 18 Apr 2015 at 7:09pm |
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comancheguytoo
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Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 6:04pm |
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Thanks for replies. I think the answer would be air to air will work with the MLB-100 only if your bogey is 978 out.
Air to air will not work between two or more equally axp-340/mlb-100 equipped aircraft because they would transmit and receive on different frequencies. Examples of other brands: Freeflight guys (978 out and in) can see each other L3 Lynx guys (both out and in) see each other, and see everyone else Garmin guys (1090 out and both in) see each other, and see everyone else, but we don't see them I guess the point I was making was that Avidyne guys not seeing each other air to air seemed inconsistent, and I thought I might be missing something.
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oskrypuch
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Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 5:54pm |
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Well, there is the MLB-2xx coming out. It is dual band.
* Orest |
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flybikeski
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Joined: 26 Feb 2015 Location: Placerville Status: Offline Points: 68 |
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Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 12:06pm |
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So let me get this right. Air-to-air is not available with the single-band MLB100 - you have to be in range of a ground station. Being out of range of a ground station is quite common in the west. I was on a Flying Sams trip to Mexico with a group of six planes. A few of them could see each other which seems quite useful. With the MLB100 I would not be able to see any of them, correct? I was getting excited about the MLB but now it sounds like it doesn't quite do it for me. |
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AviJake
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Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
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Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 12:05pm |
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Yes, agreed.
A lot of folks like to take the multiple lines of defense approach: 1. Keep your eyes outside looking for traffic (unless IMC). 2. Use flight following services from ATC. 3. Install an active traffic system. 4. Install an ADS-B system and get repeated data when in service volume areas There are other techniques as espoused by people on this forum and they're all good.
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Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
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brou0040
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Joined: 13 Dec 2012 Location: KIYK Status: Offline Points: 720 |
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Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 12:03pm |
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We seem to get left out on the west coast being thought of as the few exceptions that may not be in range of a ground station. It's the same when people assume you'll be in radar contact, not so much out here. The places I can't get flight following are the places I'd like traffic in the cockpit the most.
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MysticCobra
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Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 11:47am |
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So is Comancheguy's scenario, which posited that a ground TIS-B transmitter was not in range, so only air-to-air is available.
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AviJake
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Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 6:54am |
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Tom W's post above is correct.
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Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
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SB Jim
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Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 12:55am |
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Comancheguy,
It sure sounds right to me. There are many places where we will be outside the "service volume area" or whatever they're calling it. I saw it on my recent trip to Tucson. In my Garmin Pilot app I was receiving "air to air" but I was not receiving anything from a ground based station. I was in radar contact with ATC on a discrete squawk code at that time. I was in cruise flight at 11,500' MSL. A dual band receiver would gets you air to air inbound from either 978 or 1090 Out in addition to ground based transmissions from either. Regards, Jim |
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n7ifr
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Joined: 05 Aug 2013 Location: Scottsdale, Az Status: Offline Points: 470 |
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Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 12:21am |
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I believe your AXP340 1090 OUT will trigger ground station FIS-R which will then send a signal on BOTH 1090 and 978. So, in fact the MLB100 Traffic IN on 978 will be seeing traffic from both sources, and is only needed if you do not otherwise already have 1090 IN (like on TAS-"A", if it ever is available).
Tom W.
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comancheguytoo
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Joined: 17 Apr 2015 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 29 |
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Posted: 17 Apr 2015 at 10:28pm |
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Hi Jake, just received my 540 & 340 yesterday and am awaiting the MLB, but Az does raise one interesting point about supporting 978 only. Maybe you could clarify.
With 1090 out only(AXP340) and 978 in only(MLB100), it seems like Avidyne guys could be in a scenario where they can't see one another(less TAS of course), when guys with cheaper systems could see us and themselves. i.e. If two of us with 540/340/MLB are flying outside the UAT envelope(Owens Valley, CA for instance), we'd both be transmitting out 1090, and both waiting to hear on 978, and we might see the Cub below us with a Freeflight transponder, but we'd be running in stealth mode for each other. Does that sound right? |
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