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Unexpected behavior? |
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skycobra 
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Joined: 29 Jan 2015 Location: Novi, MI Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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 Topic: Unexpected behavior?Posted: 27 Dec 2015 at 3:31pm |
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Recently on an IFR plan, I entered the start airport, an intermediate fix, and destination airport. The map shows active course guidance (solid magenta) to the fix and a next leg (candy cane) from there to the destination just as expected. Now comes the catch, I also decide to load in the approach with vectors, and immediately lose course guidance (candy cane) from the fix to the destination airport. Note I simply preloaded the anticipated approach and have not activated. I expect to have guidance to the destination until such time as I activate the approach, usually when ATC starts to provide vectors. The G530W under the same scenario would load the approach but not impact course guidance to the destination until such time as I activated the approach. My expectation, assumption, and previous experience is loading an approach should be a benign event until such time as I elected to activate. What am I missing???? |
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Al
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oskrypuch
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Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3058 |
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Posted: 27 Dec 2015 at 4:08pm |
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This comes up not infrequently here, by folks transitioning from Garmins. It is a difference of philosophy, and with that comes many advantages, but also some procedural differences.
Garmin separates the approach phase from the main flight plan. You preload it, and then activate it. When you activate the approach in a Garmin, the main flight plan is no longer in force. It is either or. Activating an approach on an IFD simply sets you DCT to the IAF, nothing else. There is no change to the complete flightplan "strip". Avidyne has you prepare and create one continuous flightplan. It can include departures, arrivals, approaches, and even multiple airports with their arrivals and approaches. When you add an approach, it has to fit in your flightplan somewhere, so it gets tacked on before the airport. The IFD now no longer knows how you intend to transition to the IAF from the last enroute FIX, and so it generates a flightplan GAP. This is also what you normally see in airline FMCs. You have a couple of choices. 1) You can choose to not add the approach, until you are cleared to one of its waypoints, which is probably seldom really the best approach. 2) I prefer to be "organized" and see the approach in the plan, and on screen. So I load the approach, and then transition to DCT destination if I still have not been cleared for the approach by the time I reach the last enroute waypoint. The IFD will alert you of the upcoming GAP in the flightplan. If you do nothing, it will maintain last heading until you tell it differently. Note that having that "gap", does not affect any of the flight time or fuel calculations, all the datablocks will display correctly. * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 27 Dec 2015 at 4:11pm |
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ronl
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Joined: 08 Apr 2015 Status: Offline Points: 88 |
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Posted: 27 Dec 2015 at 5:27pm |
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If your loaded approach includes an initial approach fix (i.e., not a vectors-to-final approach) then you can just tap the -GAP- in the flight plan list so that it has a blue box around it then press the CLR key. The -GAP- in the flight plan will be removed and the barber pole will then connect from the last waypoint in your flight plan to the IAF for the approach. Easy cheesy.
If it is a VTF approach or you prefer direct to destination airport rather than to the IAF, you can insert the destination airport into the flight plan a second time ahead of the -GAP- or the -VTF- space. When cleared for the approach then simply go direct-to your IAF to active the approach or tap -VTF- in the flight plan list and then -Actvate VTF- on the soft key. |
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Ron L
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skycobra
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Joined: 29 Jan 2015 Location: Novi, MI Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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Posted: 27 Dec 2015 at 9:23pm |
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OK, I get it, but why not amend the programming to more closely represent actual flying. For example, I program in an enroute fix (EF), then the destination airport (DAP). The strip shows EF, then DAP. Now I want to add an approach with VTF, why not add it after the DAP and not before. So my strip would look like EF, DAP, VTF approach, DAP. BTW I can do that in the sim, by taking the extra step to insert the destination before the VTF guidance just as Ron L. suggests but not a very logical solution as this becomes a work around. Isn’t that the way I receive my clearance and ATC’s expectation? I really do want enroute guidance to my destination until such time as I engage the approach. I’m certainly not convinced that the current way is best… seems somewhat convoluted from my perspective. |
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Al
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oskrypuch
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Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3058 |
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Posted: 27 Dec 2015 at 9:39pm |
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Well, really, logically you don't normally fly from an enroute fix, to the airport, and then away from the airport to the IAF, and then again back to the airport. So in that sense, the IFD way is more logical.
But, I agree that it is different. It can take a bit to get used to. The one situation I do find a little convoluted is where you are direct to destination and add an approach. Then the IFD does have to add the approach after the airport, and another instance of the destination airport as that is the only way to accept the routing. But, even then, it is still not separate from the main flight plan. * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 27 Dec 2015 at 9:40pm |
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ronl
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Posted: 27 Dec 2015 at 9:47pm |
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I don't see it as illogical. The destination airport is still there at the end of the approach where it should be. The box doesn't know how you want to get from that random fix in your flight plan to start the approach unless the last fix in your flight plan is an IAF that approach. If the IAF is at the end of your flight plan, the IFD does not insert a -GAP- because now it knows what you want to do.
For most approaches, we don't overfly the airport before starting the approach procedure (I know there are exceptions).
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Ron L
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ronl
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Posted: 27 Dec 2015 at 9:58pm |
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oops. I see Orest is faster than me. ;-)
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Ron L
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skycobra
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Posted: 27 Dec 2015 at 11:39pm |
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OK, lets try this again. I'm given an intermediate enroute fix that lets say is 100 miles from my destination airport. I program in direct routing and am given guidance by the box to that airport until such time as I load in/activate an approach. The box definitely provides guidance to that airport. Everything is fine until I decide to preload the approach, which eliminates guidance to the airport. So yes I really do expect to have guidance for the 80 or so miles until I'm given vectors. My point is if I don't preload the approach, all is well and if I do, then I lose the advantage of the preload because I need to do a work around to maintain guidance. |
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Al
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MysticCobra
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Posted: 28 Dec 2015 at 1:59am |
As others have already mentioned, it's simply a different philosophical approach and it's different than what you're used to. From your perspective, perhaps it seems less desirable than "the old way" because to duplicate the behavior you're used to, you need to add another waypoint to your flight plan (your destination) in front of your approach after you add it. In the grand scheme of things, that's not much of a burden. Once you know that's how the box works, you just know to do that if that's how you're flying. The flexibility that this approach offers--being able to build a flight plan that includes multiple approaches to multiple airports, multiple approaches to the same airport, etc.--is something that was not possible on G* 430/530 boxes, and that's a big benefit to some folks. It's not a flaw. It's just a different way of doing things.
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oskrypuch
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Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3058 |
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Posted: 28 Dec 2015 at 3:25am |
Well, in that case just do (my) option #1. Leave the approach unloaded UNTIL you turn DCT to the airport, some 100nm out. After that point, if you add an approach, while then DCT the airport, the IFD will add the approach after the airport, and append another instance of the destination airport for you, and leave your DCT destination on the screen and in the flight plan. You are not going to know what approach you are apt to get, more than 100nm out. If you want the review the possibilities on screen, easy to do that as well, but just don't confirm that selection yet. * Orest |
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skycobra
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Posted: 29 Dec 2015 at 11:47am |
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You are all correct in that there are many options and work arounds for the scenario that I have brought up and I do appreciate the suggestions. In fact, more typically I would not preload the approach until the final leg so I have had no past issues until I elected to do the preload. I agree that the 540 is different than the 530 and in most cases an improvement but like everything else in aviation has trade-offs. I've read the manual, followed the forums and practiced with the simulator but got surprised when I tried the preload, especially going off-course after crossing my fix. I don't think the programming can change at this point, but maybe a better description of differences between the 530 and 540 in the pilots manual would have been very helpful.
I understand the bigger picture and the Grand Scheme of things, but that shouldn't stop us from exploring ways to make a good unit even better.
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Al
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AviJake
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Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
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Posted: 29 Dec 2015 at 11:50am |
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Feel like ghost-writing a proposed text update? I'm not a big fan of "here's how you do something on a 530 and here's how you do the same function on a 540" but would be more than happy to review anything you propose for new/improved text.
I'm currently editing the Pilot Guide now for the 10.2 release so timing is good. |
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Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
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skycobra
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Posted: 29 Dec 2015 at 12:16pm |
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Sure, I'll do a little more research and send you a draft for your consideration. As many have said before, the official Avidyne response is nothing short of spectacular and a benchmark for customer response. Thanks for listening.
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Al
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AviJake
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Posted: 29 Dec 2015 at 12:50pm |
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Excellent. Any time in the next 2-3 weeks would be fine, timing-wise.
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Steve Jacobson
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khuffine
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Posted: 29 Dec 2015 at 11:49pm |
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I love this 440 of mine. As an exairline guy, we would not be legal to fly a route that had a route discontinuity. When the last leg disappears after adding(guessing) what the app will be at destination,it's not just different,l don't think it's really legal to have the route gap. Maybe part 91 lets us get away with it but even loading the app 40 miles from the airport should just give u a gap but they have not cleared u off the airway yet. Got to have something to nav too.
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Khuffine
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DavidBunin
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Posted: 01 Jan 2016 at 8:35am |
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Actually, that is EXACTLY what a by-the-book Air Traffic Controller should expect you to do if communications are lost. Most experienced controllers will expect a pilot to just fly the approach (because that's what most pilots actually do in a lost-comm emergency), but that is technically not by-the-book. Your IFR clearance (prior to being assigned the approach) is to the airport itself. David Bunin |
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oskrypuch
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Posted: 01 Jan 2016 at 2:01pm |
Well, yes, but I don't think we were talking about an abnormal (loss of communication) operational circumstance here. But as you say, as to what you'd do and what is truly expected with lost comms, that can be discussion -- that is regulation vs real world. * Orest |
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DavidBunin
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Posted: 02 Jan 2016 at 10:37am |
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Well the fact of the matter is that your IFR clearance is to the airport until the moment when you are assigned an approach, (even the instruction to "expect" a certain approach technically doesn't change this). I don't see why the navigator shouldn't be programmed as such, but I also understand that this would have the pilot deleting the first instance of the airport (once cleared for, or even when expecting the approach) on most flights. David Bunin |
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oskrypuch
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Posted: 02 Jan 2016 at 12:46pm |
Doing so would not be my personal preference. I prefer to have both the actual, and expected navigation input, I am still there to intervene and adjust as necessary. But I can see it either way. * Orest |
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skycobra wrote: