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clydeps View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 Jan 2016 at 6:28am
One of the nice features of the IFDs is that I can put in a user-defined waypoint which is not in the Jepp database and tell the IFD by some custom naming magic that it is actually an airfield, and the FLTA should be suppressed when landing there. That feature works well, which is good because nearly half my landings are at my private airstrip, so I don't get yelled at on final.

But..... Today I departed my strip for the first time with the IFDs for a non-local flight, so naturally wanted to create a flight plan from my origin to my destination. Could not do it - while I can enter my strip as a destination, I can't enter it as an origin!

I assume that this applies to any user-defined waypoint, though I did not test any others (I don't have any others in there yet.)

This is a significant problem - it means I either have to create a route from a nearby airport, and then remember to use Direct to before takeoff to change the route, or maybe create a route from a nearby airport to my strip then onto the next waypoint. Again I will probably have to use direct-to at some point.

I would hope this is not a hard one to fix. I'd like it fixed Real Soon.

Apropos of this, does anyone know how to get Jepp to include an airfield in their database? My strip has an official identifier and is in the Airservices Australia database, but not the Jepp stuff.

Clyde



Edited by AviJake - 15 Jan 2016 at 8:48am
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I'll have to try it again.  I use to land on the main straight of a private 4mi racetrack.  I created a user waypoint with the field altitude and the FLTA inhibit worked fine.  I haven't done this since 10.0.0.1 but will have to try it when my airplane comes out of maintenance next week.
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Yes, I noticed this problem sometime ago but forgot to report it. In fact the iPad sim behaves this way and won't allow a user waypoint as an origin for a route.
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Couple notes:

This is per design.  The only advantage you get from entering an origin is that you can enter a departure.  You can also enter a runway, but that's only significant if there's a departure.  So if you create a user waypoint representing your airfield and then use that as the first leg in your flight plan, the effect is nearly the same.  Yes, activating that flight plan will cause a direct to that fix, but all you have to do is activate the second leg (or go direct-to it) and you're all set. 

We do have an entry in our feature database that does allow any type of point to be entered as the origin but that is currently deferred due to the very significant amount of code required to be changed to support that.  The use of the origin and it's type is scattered in many places throughout so all would have to be changed.  Based on the operational workaround noted in the first paragraph, we've elected to defer that in the interest of time to Release 10.2.

Please also note that I took the liberty of changing the title of the thread so that new readers don't interpret this as a defect.  If that gets your hackles up, let me know.
 
Steve Jacobson
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And yes, there is a way to get that airfield added to the Jepp database.  I forgot the exact process but it involves contacting Jepp, filling out some request form, (I think paying some fee), and then wait a few cycles for it to show up.

Others on this forum have done it and if you need a better pointer or contact at Jepp, let us know and we'll dig it up.
Steve Jacobson
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Steve,
For the record, a huge number of Australian airfields are not in the Jepp database. Some have a large number of GA movements.
For pilots operating out of these airfields, flight planning with the IFD is going to be tedious.
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It may just be the lightbulb hasn't turned on here yet and you guys can help turn it on.  What is so tedious about the flight planning in that case?  Can you elaborate?
Steve Jacobson
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Steve,

the issue is that you have to create a route that starts from somewhere other than where you are actually going to start. If I want to take off from A and fly to B, I expect to be able to create a flight plan route that reflects that. Instead I have to create a route that says I am going to fly from X to A to B, even though I will never go anywhere near X and it might be hundreds of miles away from the route. How does that make any sense?

At best it's inconvenient, at worst it creates the potential for serious errors. I don't know what the IFD will do if I take off with a route loaded and I am not at the origin. Does it try to fly to the origin, does it try to intercept the track from the origin to the first waypoint? Either of these could be exactly the wrong thing, and the last thing I want to have to worry about as I enter cloud is whether it's taking me the right way or not. I'm not saying I can't deal with it, but it does add an extra layer of risk.

I realise this can't be fixed quickly, but right now it would be very helpful if there was a recommended technique for dealing with this situation, and some clarification on what the IFD will do under those circumstances. I suppose I'm just going to have to test it out. It can't be done on the simulator because it will only start from an origin, AFAIK. And I don't have an iPad.

Re your comment about this being a characteristic rather than a defect, no hackles are raised, I'm more than happy to have a civilised conversation about it. I spent many years in software development, at every level from basic coding to management, so I understand the process and the challenges. But I also recognise a flawed assumption when I see one - somewhere along the way the concept that someone might need to depart from an airport not in the database slipped between the cracks. Hey, these things happen, but when they do, you just get on with it. Acknowledge the issue (can we call it that rather than a "characteristic?") and add it to the TODO list. No need to be defensive about it, and no criticism (personal or otherwise) is intended - just feedback for the purpose of improving an already great product.

Cheers, Clyde
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Understood.  Our recommended technique is to create a user waypoint for the non-database airfield you are starting from.  Then that point is used as the origin.
Steve Jacobson
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Originally posted by AviJake AviJake wrote:

Understood.  Our recommended technique is to create a user waypoint for the non-database airfield you are starting from.  Then that point is used as the origin.
Um, have we got crossed wires? I can't do that! The system will not let me choose a non-database waypoint as an origin.
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I tested this out on the PC sim.  I can create a user waypoint with the naming convention that creates it an airport; I can confirm it is recognized as an airport because you can see it's FLTA suppression.  When I try to create a flight plan and select ORIGIN, I cannot select this waypoint.  I can only select it as a WAYPOINT.  In the sim, this means that my origin is KMLB even though the flight plan doesn't show KMLB.  It shows that my active leg is to the first waypoint in the flight plan.

I think what you should do is not have an origin and just create your flight plan starting from your custom waypoint.  I don't believe you have to have a flight plan starting from something you found in the origin list.  This can't be tested in the sim, but I think it would work just fine in reality.  The airplane on the moving map will be based on your GPS position, not defaulted to KMLB as the sim does.  The 540 should realize when you are on your desired leg and automatically sequence properly.  If you take off in the opposite direction from your desired path, it may take until you pass the airfield on downwind towards your destination for it to sequence.  I'm not sure this is a big deal because without a departure procedure, it doesn't really provide you proper guidance from the origin to the first waypoint accounting for how you depart the airport anyway.


Edited by brou0040 - 15 Jan 2016 at 6:11pm
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Standby. I'm leaving wifi coverage right now. I'll type up a more complete response as soon as I get wifi coverage. Might be within next 30ish min.
Steve Jacobson
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Clyde

have you tried to create a route that begins with your user defined airport but instead of selecting origin you select waypoint for self made airport and then you continue building the route as usual. I was able to build a route like this in the sim. you then select the route and activate it and it should sequence along it.
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Originally posted by luchetto luchetto wrote:

Clyde

have you tried to create a route that begins with your user defined airport but instead of selecting origin you select waypoint for self made airport and then you continue building the route as usual. I was able to build a route like this in the sim. you then select the route and activate it and it should sequence along it.

Ah, no I haven't. This might be the light bulb moment.... Stand by, the plane is but metres away..
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Originally posted by AviJake AviJake wrote:

It may just be the lightbulb hasn't turned on here yet and you guys can help turn it on.  What is so tedious about the flight planning in that case?  Can you elaborate?

Ahh, yes, now see the "Waypoint" option instead of "Origin". Never noticed it before, I've been doing "Direct-To" on departure from these User Waypoint Airfields. Is it in the Pilot Guide somewhere?
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Ok, all is resolved. I now see that when creating a new route from the Route tab I get the choice of Origin or Waypoint as the first entry in the route. I have to select Waypoint if I'm not starting from a database airport. If creating a new route in the Flight plan tab this choice is not offered, and an Origin is automatically populated, which can't be filled with a user waypoint.

Part of my confusion stems from my assumption that an "origin" is simply where you start from, whereas it appears from Steve's comments that Origin is a special kind of waypoint in the IFD system. The pilot guide doesn't spell this out.

So, there isn't a problem - just a way of doing things that is different to what I am used to. I appreciate the prompt responses, and apologise for taking up bandwidth unnecessarily. I'd like to say it won't happen again, but I'm sure it will :-)
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I presume your box is powering up with the closest (known) airport set as the origin and perhaps you haven't tried to delete it? It also sounds like you're trying to use the sim and the only way to set the aircraft initial position in the sim is to enter an origin.  We would agree that they are stuck in that situation, but *it's a sim*. 

Here's our suggestion for when you want to fly from airport A to point B.  When you power up the box, it will have airport X as the origin.  Delete that.  Then, enter direct-to B.  That will activate your flight plan and you'll be all set.

 

Specific comments to other questions:

 

I don't know what the IFD will do if I take off with a route loaded and I am not at the origin. Does it try to fly to the origin…

No, the IFD never flies to the origin.

 

…does it try to intercept the track from the origin to the first waypoint?

Assuming a leg was entered after the origin, the flight plan was activated, and that leg became active, then the IFD will provide guidance to intercept the active leg.

 

…the last thing I want to have to worry about as I enter cloud is whether it's taking me the right way or not.

All of this can/should be done prior to departure.
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Originally posted by DH82FLYER DH82FLYER wrote:

 
Ahh, yes, now see the "Waypoint" option instead of "Origin". Never noticed it before, I've been doing "Direct-To" on departure from these User Waypoint Airfields. Is it in the Pilot Guide somewhere?
Well I'm glad I'm not the only one :-) And no, it's not in the pilot guide.

Another thing I just found - if you start in the FPL tab you get the automatically populated Origin - but you can delete that with the CLR button and then you get the Origin/Waypoint choice. If you have existing stored routes with dummy origins you can go into those and delete the Origin the same way.
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Exactly.  That's all been added to the 10.2 Pilot Guide a few weeks ago.  I forgot that you didn't have that in your version of the pilot guides and was really scratching my head over the confusion.  Looks like we're all settling out nicely.
Steve Jacobson
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