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do I really need Jepp 'charts' on 540 & ipad |
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tomd 
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Joined: 15 Apr 2016 Location: KMSN Status: Offline Points: 26 |
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 Topic: do I really need Jepp 'charts' on 540 & ipadPosted: 19 Oct 2016 at 9:55am |
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My Jepp subscription is coming due soon, and I was thinking: since I have full US charts on Foreflight, do I need them on the IFD540?
I haven't checked yet, but I'm guessing Jepp will only shave a few dollars off the price if I decline the charts. In fact, since they like to sell bundles, I might not save anything. So, those with full foreflight bundle, what do you have on the IFD?
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Bonanza F33a
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pburger
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Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 406 |
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Posted: 19 Oct 2016 at 1:17pm |
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Data only for me.
I use Foreflight for my charts, including geo-referenced plates. I cannot justify the expense of the Jepp Charts on the IFD-540. I'm actually considering dumping Foreflight due to their recent price increase. FltPlanGO is completely free for all charts including geo-referenced plates. But, it's a little clunky compared to Foreflight. Everything in life is a trade-off...
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tomd
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Joined: 15 Apr 2016 Location: KMSN Status: Offline Points: 26 |
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Posted: 19 Oct 2016 at 1:25pm |
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I spoke with Jepp this morning.
They don't offer full coverage East Central zone for the IFD540, I must get the Full US if I want charts. They offered Eastern central Nav only for $395/yr.
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Bonanza F33a
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Catani
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Posted: 19 Oct 2016 at 4:35pm |
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A chart subscription is required to get a package discount on the navdata as I recall, but I found by asking that the chart subscription does not have to be as broad as your navdata subscription. So, I get charts for my Avidyne MFD just for my state only, a significantly less expensive option than duplicating my full US navdata coverage for both the MFD and my IFD440. That option may not be available for all states. I rely on iPad apps for charts in other states.
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Ibraham
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Posted: 19 Oct 2016 at 6:46pm |
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As long as the charts in Foreflight are up to date, and you have some kind of back up (paper charts or another ipad), you do not need to have updated charts in the IFD as long as you do not use them.
However, you MUST keep the NAVDATA current in the IFD to use it for IFR navigation. The obstructions data is optional but recommended.
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Ham
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Joined: 24 Mar 2016 Location: Salt Lake City Status: Offline Points: 20 |
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Posted: 20 Oct 2016 at 10:11pm |
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I prefer to have the Jepp chart taxi diagram up on the EX5000C MFD while I'm on the airport. It is just about at eye level and I don't have to look down at the iPad while taxiing.
The IFD540 approach charts are really nice and have used them as well while flying.
I also have Foreflight which I mostly use for flight planning, weather and filing. I also use the Jepp Mobile Flight Deck app on the iPad. They are the charts I refer to the most. However, I consider anything on the iPad and iPhone as a backup. Your mileage may vary |
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M20Kid
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Joined: 19 Aug 2015 Location: AZ Status: Offline Points: 79 |
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Posted: 21 Oct 2016 at 12:54pm |
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I have charts on my 540 for one simple reason - my Ipad has been known to fail, particularly when it gets hot. I've had my Android shut down in flight, too. Maybe it doesn't happen often but the first time my mobile device shut down was in weather on and IFR flight plan approaching an area of thunderstorms. The inflight weather improved to VFR and I was able to continue safely, but what if? That singular experience makes me more comfortable having plates and ADS-B data displayable on the 540. Call it back up, redundancy, comfort zone, whatever; it's worth the price of admission to have the peace of mind when I'm flying.
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oskrypuch
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Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3058 |
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Posted: 21 Oct 2016 at 3:05pm |
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Using a tablet (android or iOS) in any way as a primary system on board, instead of as a secondary or preferably tertiary backup, is a bad idea.
* Orest |
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AUXAIR
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Joined: 01 Jul 2015 Location: KSUA Status: Offline Points: 138 |
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Posted: 21 Oct 2016 at 3:47pm |
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Excellent advice. My iPad overheated yesterday on a flight up to NC from Florida - took a 1/2 hour to cool down enough to function. I have all my charts loaded on the 540 and ForeFlight on the iPad is my backup. It is also useful to check other data on ForeFlight, like FBO information, etc, while the approach or airport diagram is on the 540. |
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David E.
Cessna 182 RG II |
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Ibraham
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Posted: 21 Oct 2016 at 3:51pm |
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This link has a good review on EFB use with specific requirement that apply to Part 91, 121, 135
http://ipadpilotnews.com/2016/02/ipad-legal-briefing-pilots-need-know-2/
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brou0040
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Posted: 21 Oct 2016 at 7:14pm |
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Perhaps, but my 540 has failed more times than all of the tablets I've flown with combined. Are paper charts TSO'd, STC'd, etc? I don't personally believe that having charts on the 540 is safer than having them on a tablet or two or as safe as having them on paper.
Edited by brou0040 - 21 Oct 2016 at 7:17pm |
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oskrypuch
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Posted: 21 Oct 2016 at 11:48pm |
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Paper charts do not rely on moving electrons or on consumer level general purpose electronics. I am Apple-free, but I see all kinds of threads about overheat problems with the devices. My android tablet, although it doesn't overheat, has crashed a few times in the air. This has never been an issue, as I have two other panel devices with data. In fact, I often don't even pull out my tablet, unless it is a longer flight and I'm kind of bored. I've never had an in-air issue with my 540, nor my Brand "G" before it, based on my experience my mind is firmly made up. When you are PIC, you are free to decide what to do. * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 21 Oct 2016 at 11:51pm |
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pitchristian
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Posted: 22 Oct 2016 at 8:14am |
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I fly for a major airline and we use the iPad as the primary source for charts.(we still have paper backups however for now) I have yet to touch a paper chart or approach plate in years. The iPad doesn't overheat at work though because I don't use foreflight (we use jepp FD pro). In my airplane I have two Ipad minis.Both have foreflight on them so I have a primary and a backup source. I do not pay for the charts on the IFD.
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MysticCobra
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Posted: 22 Oct 2016 at 8:24am |
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In the short 6 years I've owned a plane, I've had 1 complete loss of electrical power that took down all panel avionics, and in the two years I've had an IFD I've had several IFD failures (mostly related to installer error). In the five years I've been using portable devices, I've never been unable to pull up the chart I needed when I needed it. YMMV. Just because something costs $15K and is blessed by the FAA doesn't make it bulletproof. And just because something costs $50 and isn't blessed by the FAA doesn't mean it's not reliable. I'm don't absolutely trust any of the electronics in the plane, regardless of price or who's blessed it. Using tablets, even a lot, in the plane is not a bad idea. Not having a Plan B and Plan C that are fully independent of Plan A is what's a bad idea. Edited by MysticCobra - 22 Oct 2016 at 8:24am |
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AUXAIR
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Posted: 22 Oct 2016 at 9:00am |
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Using tablets, even a lot, in the plane is not a bad idea. Not having a Plan B and Plan C that are fully independent of Plan A is what's a bad idea. [/QUOTE] A good strategy, certainly. As an engineer, I know that all electronics will eventually fail. However, each pilot needs to decide on what is best for their purposes and their safety. For me, I find that I am more comfortable with an IFR-certified, panel-mounted device that is properly wired, connected to battery and alternator, and with a good, wired antenna. The 540 and 440 that I use have been very reliable, with no failures to date, and somewhat more so than my iPad, which has had 3 overheats and twice run out of battery power in flight (I now have installed a charging port on my airplane). As much as I like the device and use it extensively along with its ForeFlight app, I use it as my Plan B, as well as my supplemental information source. And yes, my Plan C is my cell phone, which also has ForeFlight on it, and which I can turn on if all else fails - along with my hand-held transceiver. We have come a LONG way since aircraft with Super-Homers and paper charts spread over our laps.... |
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David E.
Cessna 182 RG II |
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brou0040
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Posted: 22 Oct 2016 at 9:46am |
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Totally agree. My tablets are connected to the panel for power and none have ever overheated. I did have an issue once where the OS kept giving me pop-up warnings about background tasks that weren't responding so much to the point where that tablet wasn't usable. I like the fact that my tablets are panel powered and have batteries in case of power failure. One of my IFD failures was due to my voltage regulator failing in flight. I was still on aircraft battery, but it took out my IFD - the rest of the panel including my tablets was fine. I landed with plenty of aircraft battery remaining, but had that died, the tablets and my handheld transceiver would have been the only electronic devices still working. I agree that it's not that tablets shouldn't be primary, it's that we should have plans B and C available.
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DavidBunin
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Posted: 23 Oct 2016 at 7:38am |
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I have never had an overheat problem with my portable devices, and I operate in Texas and Arizona. In my favor, I fly a high-wing airplane with less solar exposure than a low-wing would have.
Plan A is Foreflight on the tablet. Plan B is to find VFR conditions. In an emergency, plan C is Foreflight on the phone. In an emergency-emergency, plan D is to have ATC read me the relevant data for an approach over the radio, or to use the out-of-date chart information in the IFD. I've never had to move past Plan A. David |
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oskrypuch
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Posted: 23 Oct 2016 at 11:24am |
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You never have an overheat problem, until you do. ;)
I see nothing wrong with using tablets in the cockpit as supplementary devices, but personally I would never rely on them as a primary source with nothing else to turn to. As I read it, that was the intent of the original poster's question, to have charts only on a tablet.
* Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 23 Oct 2016 at 11:44am |
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n7ifr
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Posted: 23 Oct 2016 at 11:56am |
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I have had my iPad overheat twice while attached to the yoke while taxiing in Thermal, Ca and Phoenix, Az. Key is to not leave it in the yoke until ready for flight.
Tom W.
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MysticCobra
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Posted: 24 Oct 2016 at 7:31am |
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Like I said, your mileage may vary. I would *like* to think that my $15,000 panel-mounted, FAA-blessed and certified GPS was more reliable than my $100 tablet. And yet, in two years, I have have my panel mounted GPS fail (for various reasons) a total of FOUR times; go back five years and it's FIVE times. This is not through owner neglect or corner-cutting. I try very hard, and spend a lot of money, to maintain my plane in tip-top shape. Once, shortly after I got my portable EFB, it went dark on me when the plane's power system died (one of the 5 times my panel-mounted GPS failed). I learned a lesson and got an external battery for it. I now also use a separate tablet device as well, and have independent software available; I have not had a loss of EFB capability since. I won't say I trust my EFBs more than I trust my panel-mounted GPS--I don't. But statistically, they've been WAY more reliable for me.
Edited by MysticCobra - 24 Oct 2016 at 7:32am |
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luchetto
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Posted: 24 Oct 2016 at 3:04pm |
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Both my 540 and 440 have overheated while my tablets did not and vice versa. It is a good plan to have both. two tablets and two IFDs should hopefully be enough
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ddgates
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Posted: 24 Oct 2016 at 4:23pm |
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I would be very concerned about a panel mount IFR certified product overheating. Wouldn't that be worthy of an AD?
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David Gates
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oskrypuch
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Posted: 24 Oct 2016 at 5:02pm |
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IIRC, luchetto has the IFD's intake vents blocked off due to the configuration of his panel (Socata), which in turn results in poorer cooling than design, so it is kind of a special case. * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 24 Oct 2016 at 5:03pm |
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ddgates
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Posted: 24 Oct 2016 at 5:14pm |
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Oh, I guess it isn't a general problem then.
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David Gates
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luchetto
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Posted: 25 Oct 2016 at 12:40am |
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Teeth6 has the same configuration but has not experienced overheating problems. I have an avionics cooling fan but now also had to bring two cooling hoses from either sides of the cowling air inlets to the back of the avionics stack. When I close the vents it doesn't take long to see the yellow warning come up. The bezel louvres are not totally blocked.
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oskrypuch wrote: