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Approaches, IF / VTF

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pat@werigi.com View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02 Aug 2015 at 8:35pm
2007 Cirrus W/Avidyne MFD,PFD & DFC90 dual IFD440

I flew several approaches today and found several issues / mis-understandings. 

Normally, when I fly a RNAV approach I load the furthest IAF (based on my direction of flight), just in case I get a fix (from ATC) and not VTF. With my Garmins 430W I could, at any time "activate Vectors to final" even if I loaded a IF. This method does not seam to work on the IFD 440, if I load a fix I cannot find anyway to activate VTF??? the manual shows I can (at least how I interpret) on page 5-18..

I had to delete the approach and re-load VTF.. 

Any ideas?

Thanks

Pat


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teeth6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2015 at 7:19am
Pat,

I do as you do but instead of activating VTF, I find it more useful to just activate the leg to the FAF.  BTW, what do you find the quickest way to delete an approach?  The only way I've found is to highlight the destination airport on the flight plan page and scroll to the little box which list the approach and hit CLR.  Any others?

Larry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2015 at 10:06am
Originally posted by pat@werigi.com pat@werigi.com wrote:

2007 Cirrus W/Avidyne MFD,PFD & DFC90 dual IFD440

.... at any time "activate Vectors to final" even if I loaded a IF. This method does not seam to work 

You don't have to delete the approach. Just hit PROC, select the approach, select VTF. Done.

I believe adding a dedicated VTF button is in the database.

BTW, one great bonus of activating VTF in the IFD, is that is doesn't wipe out all the other flight plan waypoints on screen.

* Orest

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pat@werigi.com View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pat@werigi.com Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2015 at 10:08am
Over the weekend I created a new route and saved it:

Kptk, D98, Kphn, D77, D95, Kfnt, Kptk    I pre-loaded an approach for each airport. I could not get the approaches to activate at D98 so I flew to KPHN and had problems there also. I ended up deleting the entire current route, entered Direct to KPHN and loaded the ILS4, this time I was able to activate the approach. Not sure if this is a bug....

After flying several more approaches at differnet airports I found that I needed to only load one airport and one approach. 

To delete I found that deleting the entire active route and starting over was the quickest way.

Hope they fix this one, I would hate to do this in hard IMC

Pat


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2015 at 10:25am
I have loaded multiple approaches at different airports (practice IFR) a number of times, that is one of the great conveniences of the IFDs. Pressing the PROC key multiple times, will cycle between the various approaches and arrivals you may have added, to any of the airports.

Can you be more specific? Can you recreate it in the simulator?

One note, if, and only if, you are flying direct to an airport, if you add an approach, the approach and a second instance of the airport waypoint will be added AFTER the current airport waypoint. That might be tripping you up as well. If you have an intermediate waypoint, then the approach will slot in where it should "logically".

Individual approaches can be deleted by selecting the airport waypoint in the FMS page, highlighting the noted approach, and hitting CLR.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 03 Aug 2015 at 10:27am
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pat@werigi.com View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pat@werigi.com Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2015 at 10:42am
Thank you for the information Orest,

I will try the same route in the simulator and again on Wednesday.

Pat


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2015 at 11:25am
There can be issues loading multiple approaches if they have combined waypoints, example would be if the missed approach hold waypoint is the same as the IAF for the next approach.  the 540 CAN do this correctly if you hit the exact correct sequence of button pushes.  If you mess anything up, you have to delete approaches to current AND PREVIOUS airports -  or delete the entire plan as you stated.

It doesn't sound like our issues are exactly the same, but you can read HERE for the issue I had.

To be honest, I'm disappointed in the response I've had regarding the post I wrote up.  I believe it's actually an issue because you can "lose" primary GPS navigation while on an approach near the mountains.


Edited by brou0040 - 03 Aug 2015 at 11:26am
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pat@werigi.com View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pat@werigi.com Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2015 at 11:50am
brou0040,

Thank you for the input. I'm going to re-install one of my Garmin GNS430W back into the first slot on my Cirrus as the primary GPS, I'm not comfortable in trusting my life the the IFD440's yet.

Pat
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pat@werigi.com Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2015 at 4:01pm
just figured out the easiest way to delete an approach, 

(FMS tab) while on the airport item, select the app field (where the approach is shown) the LSK will then provide an option to delete the approach.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2015 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by pat@werigi.com pat@werigi.com wrote:

just figured out the easiest way to delete an approach, 

(FMS tab) while on the airport item, select the app field (where the approach is shown) the LSK will then provide an option to delete the approach.

Yes you can either hit the CLR button (mentioned above), or the dedicated LSK that pops up.

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2015 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by pat@werigi.com pat@werigi.com wrote:

I'm not comfortable in trusting my life the the IFD440's yet.

Pat

Get a ground power unit, hook it up, and play. You installer should be happy to loan you one, if you don't want to spring for one. The simulator is good too, but is not quite the same as hands on in your plane.

After that, do a mess of cruise and practice approaches in VMC.

It is very good that you read the manual, it is well written, and does help. Unfortunately many just skip over doing that.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 03 Aug 2015 at 6:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2015 at 10:17pm
Originally posted by pat@werigi.com pat@werigi.com wrote:

brou0040,

Thank you for the input. I'm going to re-install one of my Garmin GNS430W back into the first slot on my Cirrus as the primary GPS, I'm not comfortable in trusting my life the the IFD440's yet.

Pat

Pat, my post was in no way meant to drive you away from Avidyne products.  I really like my 540 and have flown IMC approaches with my family on board.  It also took me some time before I was comfortable trusting it in IMC, but it also took me time to trust any new hardware.  I've done a lot of comparisons between the Garmin 530 and 750 and felt the 540 was a better unit.  I agree with not trusting your life to something you don't understand so my suggestion is as others have said and to spend time learning the unit.  I think the sim is the best way to learn the unit.  I'm not sure how much better a power cart is than the sim.  The sim can "fly" so you can use it to test things out.  The only limitation of the sim is that it's not interfaced with the rest of the airplane so you can't fly away from the flight plan, see CDI indications, etc, but it's a pretty complete sim.  There has been only 1 very minor difference I've found between the sim and the real box (entering data into the density calculator - real box worked as expected).

If you think about my gripe above, to my knowledge, you can't even load multiple approaches with the GNS's or GTN's.

One nice thing about Avidyne is that you can post things here and Avidyne will review and consider your feedback - maybe incorporate into future builds.  When I said I wasn't happy with the response from Avidyne, I was hoping that would respark conversation on that issue and that Avidyne would take a longer look at what I was trying to highlight and improve the product even further, not to scare people away from the unit.
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pat@werigi.com View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pat@werigi.com Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2015 at 4:38pm
Thanks for the message brou0040,

Pat
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cavu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2015 at 6:15pm
When I add a second approach, it always wants to replace the existing approach.  Am I missing something here?

Also, when you select the airport, then press PROC and select the approach, you still have to press the LSK to delete the approach (just to clarify).  Pressing on the app field of the airport and pressing LSK to delete approach seems faster.


Edited by cavu - 07 Aug 2015 at 6:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2015 at 7:04pm
You can only have one approach, at a time, to a given airport.

If you want to add an approach to a second or third listed airport, just press the PROC key until you are on the desired airport/approach and/or arrival selection.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 07 Aug 2015 at 7:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2015 at 11:35am
To add to this, if you want multiple approaches to the same airport, add the airport multiple times and then an approach for each.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cavu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2015 at 10:13am
That sounds like an accident waiting to happen.  Why would you want to do that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidBunin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2015 at 4:37pm
Practice approaches.  I could load up four approaches before the flight and then fly them all without reprogramming.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jzawodn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2015 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by DavidBunin DavidBunin wrote:

Practice approaches.  I could load up four approaches before the flight and then fly them all without reprogramming.

I'll second that. It'd be one less thing to have to deal with in my practice approaches during my IFR training (and subsequent currency work once I get the checkride out of the way).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cavu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2015 at 9:18pm
Isn't the whole idea to train the way you fly and fly the way you train.  Seems kind of artificial to set up all these approaches beforehand when working the unit in flight while setting up for the approach is how it really works.

Seems like you might be actually creating less than optimal experience/habits.

Just my instructor 2 cents
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2015 at 9:33pm
I agree with practicing like you fly.  I want to have my alternate programmed in before starting the primary approach - while the workload is low and I'm at altitude.  I think it's great to have this capability.  I have a feeling people got used to not flying this way simply because they couldn't.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2015 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by brou0040 brou0040 wrote:

I agree with practicing like you fly.  I want to have my alternate programmed in before starting the primary approach - while the workload is low and I'm at altitude.  I think it's great to have this capability.  I have a feeling people got used to not flying this way simply because they couldn't.


Comment is right on the mark. You always want to be as ahead of the plane as possible. The IFD540, and its FMS logic, provides many new advantages. It is a new paradigm, at least in little planes.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 10 Aug 2015 at 10:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobsV35B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2015 at 8:38am

Personally. what I want loaded after an approach is the complete missed approach procedure and that is all!

I agree that we should train the way we want to fly. That still includes tune, identify, and verify the next waypoint before proceeding anywhere. We now have many ways to tune and identify, but it is still important that we verify that we are going where we want to go.

Regardless of how many waypoints are in any flight plan, it is important that we "tune, identify and verify".


Happy Skies,


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidBunin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2015 at 8:59am

Originally posted by cavu cavu wrote:

Isn't the whole idea to train the way you fly and fly the way you train.  

Except that the optimal IFR training flight already is very unlike the optimal IFR transportation flight.

If I'm planning a trip to Houston, I don't plan to fly four or six approaches at my destination.  If I proceed to my alternate, there will be lots of time to reprogram (i.e. a cruise segment) before I actually get there from the destination.

Neither of those things are true if I'm out to practice approaches near my home airport.  For example, before my IFD the standard IFR practice flight was to fly the ILS 17 and on the "miss" to just enter the procedure turn for the BC 35, then miss to the procedure turn for the ILS again.  That leaves essentially no time for reprogramming a flight management system (which I didn't have anyway).

The point of the training flight was to brush the rust off the fine motor skills needed to fly a good approach.  Not to practice the programming of the avionics.

Maybe things will be different now that I am starting to fly GPS approaches, but I think the iPad simulator is probably a better tool for learning the avionics.  I can pause the experience whenever I need to.

David Bunin



Edited by DavidBunin - 11 Aug 2015 at 9:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2015 at 10:16am
Originally posted by DavidBunin DavidBunin wrote:

If I proceed to my alternate, there will be lots of time to reprogram (i.e. a cruise segment) before I actually get there from the destination.

This isn't the case often out here in SoCal.  With the localized marine layer, you can can have low minimums with fog and clear skies a few miles away.  All this while low and in a very dense traffic area.

Flying practice approaches nearly back to back is not only good practice to how we may actually be flying, but I also agree with practicing something more difficult under more stress than I plan to in IMC.  Another way to say that is that I have personal IMC minimums that are higher than what I'll fly to when VMC with a safety pilot.  Condensing the workload under practice conditions can be good practice depending on the type of environment you expect to fly IMC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2015 at 11:49am
Originally posted by BobsV35B BobsV35B wrote:

Personally. what I want loaded after an approach is the complete missed approach procedure and that is all!


Well, I have to say, that I think that is not efficient, and in some circumstances may really test you unnecessarily.

If there is even a ghost of a chance of a missed, you should not only know what you are planning, having discussed it with ATC, but should have it quickly available to you. In the GNS days I would have another flight plan in memory that I could load quickly. Now with the IFD, I program in what I'm planning, after the published miss (or whatever ATC assigns) in the flightplan.

You don't want to be thinking and fiddling close to the ground in IMC. 

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cavu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2015 at 1:13pm

Orest,

I've heard of, and teach, staying ahead of the aircraft, but this is beyond that. 

I always expect to miss. I have enough to think about the approach ahead of me (and the miss) to even think of pre-programming another approach.

What makes you think that the approach at the alternate will be the approach they are working at the moment.  Weather obviously deteriorated below the destination airport resulting in a miss, its likely your alternate will have different weather.  This is what proficiency does.  Some one earlier said that its for flight motor skills.  Couldn't disagree anymore.  Practicing in the clouds is where you get the flow of setting up radios, GPS, etc for approaches.  You are actually short changing yourself setting up all these approaches in advanced. I rarely, if ever, know what approach is being used at even the destination let alone the alternate.  All it takes is a wind shift.

Secondly, the alternate should not be so close to the destination that you are in a hurry up situation.  You can collect your thoughts in the hold at the missed or tell ATC you want to be vectored for time. 

BTW, you better be "thinking" when you are close to the ground in IMC.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobsV35B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2015 at 1:38pm

Afternoon Cavu,


Sounds good to me! <G>


There is no doubt that all this fancy new stuff introduces the potential for work load reduction, but we still need to stay in touch with what is happening. I have been flying IFR regularly since 1950. My technique is fairly well established, but I hope I am always open to new ideas.


The low frequency radio range worked well, but we still had to keep our head engaged.


Tune, identify and verify. Works for me!


Happy Skies,


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cavu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2015 at 2:20pm

Hi Bob,

Sounds like you and I are on the same page (and age).

Be safe.


Jim

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2015 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by cavu cavu wrote:

Orest,

I've heard of, and teach, staying ahead of the aircraft, but this is beyond that. 

Well, to me, there is no down side to being as ready as possible. I have a plan in mind even before I launch, together with the likely approaches to expect. With my idle time at cruise and early in the arrival, I like to program as much as I can. I don't have much else to do. I usually program in the expected routing for the next flight leg as well, in the unit's memory.

Humans are terrible multitaskers. From the FAF in, with all the checklists done, my remaining job is keeping the needles centered and looking up at the right time to decide if I go missed or land. What might happen after that, is already mused about and programmed, freeing me up for full concentration on the critical task at hand.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 11 Aug 2015 at 2:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidBunin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2015 at 4:29pm

I will wait to judge how I feel about this until I try it out. But I am intrigued by the idea of a new way to operate. I never before considered putting my destination into the fight plan more than once so that I could load multiple approaches.  I don't usually make my alternate part of my flight plan, but that too is an interesting idea.  So even without having made a final decision, I am excited by the possibility of a better way to do things.  If it's not better, I won't use it.

To be honest, I don't do a lot of IFR flying and not many approaches.  Probably more than 95% of the approaches in my logbook are training or practice.  Approaches to anything near minimums are count-on-a-hand events.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2015 at 6:24pm
Also, one tip, you can't add the same waypoint (incl. airport) twice or thrice in a row, without there being at least one other waypoint inbetween. A published missed will do.

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jack Seubert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2015 at 6:15pm
Hello all you 540 geniuses,
I have done several approaches with my 540 and i do not see the Enable Missed and Activate Missed in L4 LSK inside of the FAF.  The approach seems to be loaded on the flight plan page and the NAV MODE data block displays GPS/VLOC and switches over to VLOC intercepting the final approach.  It automatically turns the ILS.  I just don't ever see the Enable or Activate Missed options.

What am I doing wrong?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2015 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by Jack Seubert Jack Seubert wrote:

....  I just don't ever see the Enable or Activate Missed options.
Any chance that you have the missed set for automatic sequencing?

Check AUX | SETUP | User Options

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 27 Nov 2015 at 6:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jack Seubert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2015 at 6:36pm
Orest,

I do have that set up with automatic sequencing.

Jack
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2015 at 6:39pm
Originally posted by Jack Seubert Jack Seubert wrote:

I do have that set up with automatic sequencing.

Then, there is no manual soft key option to activate the missed. You just fly it, and it will sequence.

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jack Seubert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2015 at 8:24am
Thanks Orest, I figured that might be the case in fact I was planning to turn off the automatic sequencing on my next flight to see if that was the case.
Orest, thanks also for all your help explaining how things work on the IFD's I have found your information invaluable in my quest to learn how these navigators work.

Jack
Jack Seubert
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oskrypuch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2015 at 9:30am
Originally posted by Jack Seubert Jack Seubert wrote:

...  I have found your information invaluable in my quest to learn how these navigators work.

Well, you are most welcome. I just like talking flying, and the IFD is very much a part of that for me.

* Orest

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